Do i need a pre buy ????

[flyhigh603]

Hello Gentlemen !

                                                                          Hope all you had a great holiday season ! So here`s my question.....If your looking to buy a Mooney, i know you should definitely have a pre buy done ( to save your ass literally ) .But do you need to have one done if you are buying from a reputable dealer such as "All American " or "Air-Mods" or "Skywagons" ?? These seem to be the most reputable shops i`ve come across online.All their respective aircraft seem to be top notch and in fantastic cond.So silly question again .....Would you need a pre inspection done if buying from well respected dealer ???????

[Browncbr1]

IMHO , salesmen often don't even know what they are selling.  Yes, get a prebuy, but make sure your guy is very good and you fully trust him that he knows his stuff, especially if you have never owned a mooney before.   

[DAVIDWH]

Why would anyone want to pay $$ for a pre-buy when you can find out about the planes issues and problems,

cost free,  a few hours flying time after purchase.

[Guest]

Y ou should do a Pre purchase inspection.  The sales company, no matter how good at sales is not a maintenance shop.  They represent to interests of the seller and make their living doing it.  

The pre purchase allows you to learn about the condition of the plane and negotiate any issues before you own the plane.

Clarence

[gsxrpilot]

I bought my C from David at All-American. He told me to get a pre-buy done and when I mentioned Maxwell, he said that was an excellent choice.

I would be comfortable without a pre-buy if I was buying from All-American and Don had been doing all the maintenance. I'd give Don a call to talk about the plane and get his approval. That would be enough for me.  But only that combination.

[Yetti]

All American are brokers representing the seller.  Their contract reflects this and offers lots of protection for the seller and little for the buyer. Airworthyness is somewhat subjective.

It's more fun to post the plane you are looking at then get the peanut gallery to offer free options

[M20F]

I bought mine from All American and Maxwell did pre-buy annual.  Worked out very well in terms of getting the plane in good shape, at the right price, and Dave/Jimmy/Don were all great to work with.  

[Hank]

When do you need a Pre-Purchase Inspection? When you buy an airplane.

What's involved in  a Pre-Purchase Inspection? Discuss it with the A&P who will do it for you, before he starts.

[DaV8or]

Yes. Get a pre buy. There are few instances ever when I recommend skipping it. This is not one of them. All American is great, I met them years ago when I was shopping. They seem to be pretty honest, straight up guys, however, they are not mechanics, nor do they pretend to be. They have not seen inside the planes they are selling, on the outside and logbooks. That's why they recommend a pre buy.

[RLCarter]

  A pre-buy inspection can be leverage when it comes to negotiating price. When we set down at the table (actually it was the right wing) I told them that their price was a fair market value if the aircraft was in annual, I then showed them a list of issues (discovered during the pre buy) that would have to be addressed before an annual (past due) could be signed off and the aircraft was put back into service. The list could not be disputed and didn’t contain trivial stuff like flaws in the paint or stains on the interior. I gave them three options, 1) I would give them 25% of the asking price (which I laid the actual cash on the table) as earnest money so they can get it back in the air and complete the sale, or 2) I laid another stack of cash out (now totaling 58% of their asking price) which would complete the sale and I would get the bird back in the air, or 3) I pick up my cash, they pick up their airplane, we shake hands and walk away. Needless to say I now own an “E” model for less than I willing to pay in the beginning. The only way I see a pre buy being a waste of money is when you end up not buying the aircraft but in the long run it actually saved you money.

[carusoam]

Getting a PPI is for the protection of your finances and your buttocks...

Who does it and how much it costs should be in line with the purchase price and your risk tolerance.

Expect bigger faster planes have more parts and systems that need to be inspected and tested...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest Mike261]

A pre buy was a requirement of the financing company i used...

mike

[carusoam]

Did they give guidance to who and how much with that?

my financing company required the minimum document search to prove they owned the plane and it matched the description.  More protection of them than me...

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

You definitely need an INDEPENDENT pre-buy. I think the notion of a maintenance shop, even a good one, protecting a profit margin on an aircraft sale and at the same time vouching for it mechanically is listed in the dictionary under "conflict of interest."

[Awful_Charlie]

Yes, you need a pre-buy, unless you are willing to write off what you pay for it

If you can, get the A&P who will do the maintenance should you go ahead with the purchase, there are a few advantages if it is practical

[steingar]

The best situation is a prenup or better yet annual inspection by the mechanics who will be maintaining the aircraft.  Their option is the most salient.

[PTK]

 

Hello Gentlemen !

                                                                          Hope all you had a great holiday season ! So here`s my question.....If your looking to buy a Mooney, i know you should definitely have a pre buy done ( to save your ass literally ) .But do you need to have one done if you are buying from a reputable dealer such as "All American " or "Air-Mods" or "Skywagons" ?? These seem to be the most reputable shops i`ve come across online.All their respective aircraft seem to be top notch and in fantastic cond.So silly question again .....Would you need a pre inspection done if buying from well respected dealer ???????

Yes! You'll also find that a "respected dealer" more often than not will recommend a shop to do the inspection for you! 

Don't give in to that temptation. You're paying for the inspection therefore you dictate who does it!

[75_M20F]

What is a "prebuy" exactly? Everyone is going to have a different definition. I had a "prebuy" done on my 1975 F model when I bought it and I have learned some valuable lessons from the experience. Essentially, a prebuy offers you no protection whatsoever. Maybe your shop spots something maybe they don't. No shop or mechanic is required to sign or endorse anything that guarantees anything at all in any way

I had a "prebuy" done by a Mooney certified shop in the Atlanta area, he found a few minor squawks that were repaired. I paid the money and flew it home, turned out there was a crack in the engine mount discovered after I had it in annual the very next month. The engine had to come off and the mount sent off for repair. A very expensive fix (lots of labor), which was caught in a full annual by the way.

The best protection is for the buyer to pay the base price of a full annual and the seller agrees to pay for all unairworthy items found (whether the annual is due or not). Now you have some concrete assurance and protection. The shop or mechanic has to sign your logbook certifying that the aircraft is airworthy and all AD's are current. They are putting their livelihood/mechanics licence on the line and that is about as much motivation as you are going to get. Make sure to use a different shop then the owner has been using. Also, the obvious fact that they are Mooney current goes without saying.

If paying the the base cost of an annual is too much money for your budget, then you are probably not financially ready for aircraft ownership right now.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Like so many thing in life everyone has an opinion.  The PPI is all about risk and minimizing physical and financial harm to you.

I would suggest that you should employ the shop you will be using going forward.  You need to have a clear understanding of what level and depth the inspection will entail. What things would be show stoppers for you, for them? 

Some say do an Annual, that's no guarantee either, around here Annual's last from a few hours to a few months.

In my opinion, the logs should read from copper to cover, every mod done should have its 337, STC, weight and balance amendment checked, a flight test carried out to test flying qualities and system operation, every inspection panel it should be open, no part of the plane should go un opened, un inspected,  every system checked and tested.  All AD's for airframe, engine, propeller and installed systems checked.

In the end your shop should be able to complete the servicing portions and sign out the Annual.

Clarence

[L. Trotter]

I just purchased an Ovation...closed Dec.31 and can't wait to fly my new mistress home.  The last 4 months of searching has taught (reminded) me a few things.

1. A pre-purchase inspection (PPI) and annual are not the same thing. The pre-purchase involves a much more in-depth assessment of the logs and other assessments that are not apart of an airworthiness assessment that is at the heart of an annual. For instance: a crack in the plastic of a side panel, an auto pilot servo adjustment based on calendar time (not function), paint scuff, flexible hose replacement based on calendar time (not appearance) etc.

2. A new annual should not be considered a PPI. One plane I was considering had just had an annual by a very respected shop. Although not considered airworthiness issues, about 15K worth of "fix it's" were discovered on the PPI by an unrelated 3rd party inspection.

3. A set of "new eyes" to evaluate a plane is a good practice-even for an annual from time to time. Although there are many good shops with mechanics whom we trust with our life, they are not perfect in all things. Weaknesses in one shop will not be the same as in another. No one can be perfect at everything.

4. When spending a lot of resource (money) on a plane that we will be willing to placing our life (and love ones) in, the best advice is to not cut corners and be thrifty with a plane you know little about. learn as much as is humanly possible.

5. Multiple educated opinions are typically better than just one. This does not reflect on the honesty and quality of a particular individual/shop. I have found that some questions just have more than one correct answer.

6. There will be items discovered that the owner truly knew nothing about.

In summary, spend a little extra money and start out right. You may likely receive the monies back as you will negotiate the selling price from a position of knowledge. Chances are you will have a safer plane in the end with no costly surprises.

[midlifeflyer]

I know a guy who bought a used airplane without a pre-buy. It was one of those airplanes you see on the ramp that hadn't been flown in 10 years. Flat tires and all. He paid $1,000 for it. It was a good (actually great) deal and he was happy to take all the financial risks involved.

if that's your deal, go ahead and skip the pre-buy.

if not, I can't imagine buying something "as is" for a substantial amount of money without minimizing my risk by having it inspected.

[DonMuncy]

In my opinion, you should do a 'stepped" inspection. Have the respected guy check all the usual places for corrosion. If any is found, stop there, cancel the purchase and move on. If no corrosion, borescope the engine and check for leaky tanks. If anything found wrong in the engine or tank leaks, stop the inspection, renegotiate the price or cancel. Check the donuts, control rigging and overall straightness. If no surprises here, flip it into an annual. There may be some other big dollar items that I am skipping over. I am sure others here will chime in with some of them. A pre-buy is not a time to worry about the minutiae that you want to spend a lot of dollars to find out about, until you are certain the plane is going to be yours. Naturally, you will want your agreement to purchase to include a clause that the seller will pay for the repair (reduction in purchase price) for all airworthy.

[flyhigh603]

Thank you gentlemen for all your opinions good and bad, that`s why i like to pose questions here.You get the unadulterated answers.....thanks....

[midlifeflyer]

 

In my opinion, you should do a 'stepped" inspection. Have the respected guy check all the usual places for corrosion. If any is found, stop there, cancel the purchase and move on. If no corrosion, borescope the engine and check for leaky tanks. If anything found wrong in the engine or tank leaks, stop the inspection, renegotiate the price or cancel. Check the donuts, control rigging and overall straightness. If no surprises here, flip it into an annual. There may be some other big dollar items that I am skipping over. I am sure others here will chime in with some of them. A pre-buy is not a time to worry about the minutiae that you want to spend a lot of dollars to find out about, until you are certain the plane is going to be yours. Naturally, you will want your agreement to purchase to include a clause that the seller will pay for the repair (reduction in purchase price) for all airworthy.

You give the best argument for using your own guy, asking how familiar he or she is with the breed of airplane you are buying, and being an in integral part of the pre-buy process yourself.  A shop echoing that would have a great marketing tool.

[Bravoman]

 

I just purchased an Ovation...closed Dec.31 and can't wait to fly my new mistress home.  The last 4 months of searching has taught (reminded) me a few things.

1. A pre-purchase inspection (PPI) and annual are not the same thing. The pre-purchase involves a much more in-depth assessment of the logs and other assessments that are not apart of an airworthiness assessment that is at the heart of an annual. For instance: a crack in the plastic of a side panel, an auto pilot servo adjustment based on calendar time (not function), paint scuff, flexible hose replacement based on calendar time (not appearance) etc.

2. A new annual should not be considered a PPI. One plane I was considering had just had an annual by a very respected shop. Although not considered airworthiness issues, about 15K worth of "fix it's" were discovered on the PPI by an unrelated 3rd party inspection.

3. A set of "new eyes" to evaluate a plane is a good practice-even for an annual from time to time. Although there are many good shops with mechanics whom we trust with our life, they are not perfect in all things. Weaknesses in one shop will not be the same as in another. No one can be perfect at everything.

4. When spending a lot of resource (money) on a plane that we will be willing to placing our life (and love ones) in, the best advice is to not cut corners and be thrifty with a plane you know little about. learn as much as is humanly possible.

5. Multiple educated opinions are typically better than just one. This does not reflect on the honesty and quality of a particular individual/shop. I have found that some questions just have more than one correct answer.

6. There will be items discovered that the owner truly knew nothing about.

In summary, spend a little extra money and start out right. You may likely receive the monies back as you will negotiate the selling price from a position of knowledge. Chances are you will have a safer plane in the end with no costly surprises.

Did you by chance buy the O that was listed by Airmart?