Noise canceling headsets, how good are they ...really!

[nels]

I have a pair of newer Light Speed noise canceling headsets and I wear them religiously when flying. I believe this technology came out of our military to combat low frequency noise such as explosive blasts, engine noise etc. I'm wandering if they are giving me a false sense of security as far as hearing loss? I notice they are very ineffective when turned off if you were comparing to a good set of non cancelling headsets. Are they just cancelling the lower frequencies and letting the higher ones go unchecked?? I noticed a change in my hearing recently quite by accident.  I could no longer hear the shower running in the bathroom when in the next room. Not meant to be a joke but that frequency is probably close to the air rushing past the windows of my plane at speed? I guess I'm wondering if ear buds under a good set of headsets would be better. I like flying but I love hearing. Anybody else concerned or have a better idea.

[DonMuncy]

From what I have read over the years, hearing loss is cumulative and irreversible, so anything you do now will not bring your hearing loss back. That said, everything you can do to keep it from getting worse is worth trying. I use a set of David Clarks which are pretty good passively. I have installed the Headsets, Inc. ANR units in them, which improves the sound level tremendously. I don't claim any expertise in the frequencies which are affected, but I know they sound much quieter. I figure I am doing everything I can short of stopping flying. But I have substantial hearing loss, which I attribute to my years of sports car racing, tuning, etc. But I'm also old, you nobody expects me to have good hearing.  

[1964-M20E]

I've heard from audiologists some negatives regarding noise canceling headsets.  They are generating sound energy to cancel the ambient noise so is there more noise energy with them???

BTW I use noise canceling headsets in my plane and passives when in a helicopter.

 

 

 

[Browncbr1]

I tried using just foam ear plugs under passive David Clarks and it really made me nervous.  It blocks all high and most midrange.  But all the low range continues and you hear things in the motor/prop that you wouldn't otherwise hear.  It was so crazy sounding, I pulled them off right after takeoff to make sure my motor was running correctly on climb.   Some people get used to them, but I haven't tried them again since.   

[MyNameIsNobody]

My plane is 90db  90 is the threshold to have noise reduction in an 8 hour workday.   How many hours do you fly?  How many hours do you ride in a car with windows down?  How many hours listening to music in car or wearing ear buds?  I have zero fear of hearing loss from flying with noise canceling headsets.  Not enough exposure.  The other stuff...THAT is what to worry about including a lot of daily work noise without protection.  Target shoot?  Wear protection.

[nels]

31 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

My plane is 90db  90 is the threshold to have noise reduction in an 8 hour workday.   How many hours do you fly?  How many hours do you ride in a car with windows down?  How many hours listening to music in car or wearing ear buds?  I have zero fear of hearing loss from flying with noise canceling headsets.  Not enough exposure.  The other stuff...THAT is what to worry about including a lot of daily work noise without protection.  Target shoot?  Wear protection.

You know, I kinda thought the same thing but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't shoot, when I travel in a car I use ear plugs, I don't listen to loud music; I'm just careful about my hearing. I did work in an industrial environment for 30 yrs and I know that took its toll but I'm trying to maintain what I have left. I think hearing loss is one of those things that creep up on you and all of a sudden you realize you can't hear the birds in the morning or the crickets at night. 90 db will damage your hearing. An eight hour day of that would be insane. I think they limited noise to 80 or less when I was still working and it did it's damage to me. Don't take it lightly, when it's gone it is gone.

[carl]

me too . and this dang ringing in the ears all the time . 

they say its cause im 58 . .  . 

 

[DonMuncy]

Just now, nels said:

You know, I kinda thought the same thing but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't shoot, when I travel in a car I use ear plugs, I don't listen to loud music; I'm just careful about my hearing. I did work in an industrial environment for 30 yrs and I know that took its toll but I'm trying to maintain what I have left. I think hearing loss is one of those things that creep up on you and all of a sudden you realize you can't hear the birds in the morning or the crickets at night. 90 db will damage your hearing. An eight hour day of that would be insane. I think they limited noise to 80 or less when I was still working and it did it's damage to me. Don't take it lightly, when it's gone it is gone.

Don't forget the gene factor and the random factor. In spite of doing everything right, sometimes people get bad stuff very young. I think the best way is to do the best you can (within reason) and take what we get.

I'm substantially over 58 and don't have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), but I sure don't claim it is something I did or didn't do.

[Guest]

I have several DC headsets modified with the Headset Inc conversion kits.  They are the only ones which could keep up with the noise in my 2 previous E models on take off.  When the battery dies it's still a fairly good DC.

Clarence

[bonal]

Constant Ringing in the ears tinnitus is not always a condition from exposure to loud noise. Sometimes it's triggered by an allergic reaction however my degrading hearing is most likely due to exposure. I have ANC in my headset but always forget to charge the bat. The passive works pretty good but when I switch on the noise reduction I feel a pressure wave momentarily in my ears. Noise  canceling is still noise always wondered if it actually increases total decibels 

[DonMuncy]

Headsets, Inc. sells a jack that can be hardwired in the plane and avoid the battery problem altogether.

[helitim]

Am I the only one that uses Softcomm headsets? I have two of the C100 sets.  They have built in ENR that runs off of plane power.  No annoying battery packs.  A built in PTT that I have had use for more than once when the planes PTT malfunctioned.  Built in phone plug that works very well.  And just two weeks ago I sent one back to the factory after 13 years of use.  It had developed some static due to a loose or cracked connection somewhere.  They completely replaced the entire wiring harness, ear covers, mic and boom, headset padding and sent me a new phone plug cord. The darn thing looked new when I got it back. Total cost was $111 refurb and shipping.  

I realize a lot of people are sold on the much more expensive sets. I agree they are nice.  I have flown with Bose, Sennheiser, David Clarks, etc.  A couple of them are a little bit clearer, but not $600 worth.  Not once have I ever been unable to hear a transmission because of my cheaper yet, in my opinion, really good headsets.  Getting back to the OP's question.  If you turn off the power to the headsets in flight, there is a noticeable difference in the noise but the passive attenuation is still good.  I do not have a method to measure the noise in my cockpit except to say that it is loud if I take off my headset.  The Powerflow exhaust increased my cabin noise noticeably but the ENR makes it comfortable.  

Just my 2 cents worth

[carusoam]

I bought my passive, in ear headset from that guy. ^^^ 

Hmmm, wireless, passive, in ear headset....

1) hear everything ATC says to me.

2) not surprising when I depart the plane with them on still.

3) nobody is going to really know that I forgot.  They will look like I'm listening to my favorite rock band.

What do you say to wireless Phil?

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

That does seem odd...

One thing to lose the ANC, but completely different to lose the sound and mic connection as well.

Going to need another headset ready to go for plan B, when going wireless...

Thanks for sharing some professional insight,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

8 hours ago, 1964-M20E said: I've heard from audiologists some negatives regarding noise canceling headsets.  They are generating sound energy to cancel the ambient noise so is there more noise energy with them???

BTW I use noise canceling headsets in my plane and passives when in a helicopter.

 

 

 

NO!!!!!

 While more energy is added to the system to work its magic, ANR does NOT result in more energy seen at the ear drum!

Adding the proper amount of energy at the carefully controlled amplitude and time (180 degrees out of phase) results in a reduction of sound energy seen at the ear.  That's why it is quieter with the ANR turned on.

(If you know of any audiologist that says there is more noise energy with ANR, send them my way and I will set them straight)

 Phil Mc   

 

 

While it reduces the sound energy and stress on the ear, it is adding energy, some perceive this as feeling a slight wind, ever blow into a microphone? Maybe that's what they meant.

ANR allows me to turn down the radio volume and still hear clearly, which makes it worth it. I have ANR Sony stereo headset, it pales in comparison to my Bose, not all ANR are equal.

[1964-M20E]

6 hours ago, pmccand said:

NO!!!!!

 While more energy is added to the system to work its magic, ANR does NOT result in more energy seen at the ear drum!

Adding the proper amount of energy at the carefully controlled amplitude and time (180 degrees out of phase) results in a reduction of sound energy seen at the ear.  That's why it is quieter with the ANR turned on.

(If you know of any audiologist that says there is more noise energy with ANR, send them my way and I will set them straight)

 Phil Mc   

 

 

Phil

I see where you are coming from and I agree I like ANC it makes communication much easier.  I'm just stating what I heard.

When I started flying in 1986 the planes I used didn't have headsets in them and I was too poor (CB) to buy them and at the time I think David Clark was just about the only game in town and at $30 an hour for the plane a set of DC headsets equaled a number of hours flying.  Today you can get just about any flavor of headset you want. for a wide variety of prices.

However, if I remember from physics correctly when you have two wave forms and one is canceling out the other you set up a standing wave at another frequency and amplitude but that was also 25 years ago so I am most likely remembering wrong.   Finally , the noise canceling waveform will always be slightly out of phase with the real time noise waveform.  The phase shift maybe be so small as to be difficult to measure and negligible but it will be there.

 

 

[Bob - S50]

If you are really worried about hearing loss, wear foam earplugs under your ANR headset.

I started wearing foam ear plugs in the Air Force as soon as they were invented, about 1978 or so.  Used them under every helmet until I resigned in 1989.

Did not use them during my 25 year airline career.  Wish I had, but you have to be able to talk to the rest of the crew.

Thanks for reminding me.  I think I'll take my own advice and start using them again.

[MyNameIsNobody]

We are not talking about noise levels that are dangerous (in a piston plane) from an impact standpoint.  Jet engines, Gunshots, Rock concerts.  This is noise at 110-120+.  Yes, hearing loss is insidious.  It occurs slowly over time and is impacted by the aging process...That said it is about duration.  Duration over time is the enemy.  I wear ANR headsets primarily for the reduced clamping force/comfort and the quality of the sound.  I wear over ear muffs when I cut the grass...for comfort.  I wear plugs when I shoot skeet or targets.  If I worked in a mfg plant daily...with noise at or around 85db (Time weighted over an 8 hour day) I would wear ear plugs.  OSHA says mandatory if 90dba and test (annual employee hearing at 85dba)...you know cause it's the employers fault if you listen to music at ridiculous levels and otherwise do not protect your hearing and employer must pay if you experience a shift in hearing capability.  Seriously, passive headsets or ANR headsets are doing their job...giving you protection from high noise levels.  The comfort and quality cost money.  For my 50-100 hour annual exposure (minimal) impact I am more worried about "the other stuff"...Hearing is for life.  Protect it, but don't go overboard like wearing plugs in a car...

[Jerry 5TJ]

ANR headsets (mine happen to be Bose X) do a good job of reducing the low frequency engine and prop noise in the "C" model.   I wear them at all times in the plane. 

I wired the front seats for LEMO connectors which power the headset from the plane:  No more batteries in the headsets.  The LEMO connector is wired in parallel to the regular 1/4" and 3/16" jacks so either old style or LEMO headsets can be used. 

[Deb]

There is an 8 page thread on Beechtalk about ANR headsets:

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=97337&hilit=Anr

A fair number also like the Halo ear buds:

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=108223&hilit=Halo+pirep

[DXB]

22 hours ago, nels said:

I noticed a change in my hearing recently quite by accident.  I could no longer hear the shower running in the bathroom when in the next room. Not meant to be a joke but that frequency is probably close to the air rushing past the windows of my plane at speed? I guess I'm wondering if ear buds under a good set of headsets would be better. I like flying but I love hearing. Anybody else concerned or have a better idea.

Nels - my aviation knowledge is shaky but I might be able to help a bit more regarding hearing loss.

Not all hearing loss the same, but most common is symmetric high frequency loss from inner ear damage (sensorineural loss) - this is usually noise-induced, genetic, or a combination of both and progresses slowly with age. It is a threshold phenomenon-  the inner ear sustains a lot of irreversible damage over time but has enough reserve function that no hearing loss is experienced.  But once the threshold is crossed, the hearing loss can progress rapidly, and careful use of hearing protection is crucial even for mundane things like mowing the lawn. Note that deep insertion foam plugs (as in Clarity Aloft and Halos) provide good low frequency attenuation and really excellent high frequency attenuation- the range which most people with hearing loss need to protect most.  This would be my clear first choice for this type of loss.

It's important to realize that there are other kinds of hearing loss.  What people notice first with high frequency senorineural loss is trouble hearing conversation in a crowded room. But I'm not sure if the shower is in the same category of high frequency noise - certainly there are other kinds of hearing loss   If you haven't already, please consider getting a full audiogram from an experienced audiologist, preferably one directly associated with a reputable ENT practice that includes a fellowship-trained otology MD who also reviews the audiogram results.  If you have something other than garden variety symmetric high frequency sensorineural loss, the advice can be quite different, and there might be treatment options as well.  

[Releew]

Started in 83 in a Piper Tomahawk.  That environment was so loud the speaker was set to HI at all times.  To converse to a passenger you would literally need to scream.  I couldn't afford (or thought I needed one) a headset till the early 90's and it was the basic D/C.  I thought that was the best thing on the planet until I purchased the Bose ANR. Yes....batteries do wear out....so just keep some extra near by.  I personally have become spoiled this technology.  If I am in the plane for any length of time having the headset operative is a must.  From a safety standpoint we all have to admit hearing clearly makes us much better pilots.  Much better than anticipating ATC instructions of having to think about what you thought was heard!

I really like the hard wire setup.....  Thanks for sharing that!

 

Rick

[chrisk]

I use Halo ear buds.  I'm very happy with them for short duration.    For long flights for 4+ hours, I put a pair of Bose QC15s over the Halo ear buds.  --Best of both worlds!

[WardHolbrook]

On 11/18/2015, 2:38:34, DonMuncy said:

From what I have read over the years, hearing loss is cumulative and irreversible, so anything you do now will not bring your hearing loss back. That said, everything you can do to keep it from getting worse is worth trying. I use a set of David Clarks which are pretty good passively. I have installed the Headsets, Inc. ANR units in them, which improves the sound level tremendously. I don't claim any expertise in the frequencies which are affected, but I know they sound much quieter. I figure I am doing everything I can short of stopping flying. But I have substantial hearing loss, which I attribute to my years of sports car racing, tuning, etc. But I'm also old, you nobody expects me to have good hearing.  

That's what I was told by a couple of audiologists as well. I was fortunate, back in 1975 when I started flying for a living I was given a headset as a gift and I've worn them ever since. The company I was flying for back in 1988 sent all of the company pilots to an audiologist to get base lines established. We also had to take a dB meter up in the cockpit with us to get the cockpit noise levels. (The Lear 35 was extremely loud up front when you had the windshield bleed heat on.) That's when they bought us each one of the 1st generation noise cancelling Bose headsets. We used those for a few years then switched over to various David Clark products. Bottom line is that after 49 years and 15,000 hours I can still hear. Hearing loss is accumulative and irreversible. You can skimp on some things, but one thing you should never skimp on is your headset. Buy the best one you can. I'd rather have a used good one than a new mediocre/poor one. I've know guys who bought "well used" David Clarks and sent them back for refurbishment and ended up with essentially new headsets for a fraction of the new price. Finally, headsets are like motorcycle helmets, they do you no good unless you use them. 

[Mooneymite]

Google:  InFO 07001 DATE: 1/5/07 

Apparently the FAA wants headset users to be aware of what they might not hear.