WAAS GPS

[aerobat95]

So I am looking at a WAAS GPS and am wondering if the GTN 650 and the IFD 440 are the only options?  The IFD440 is being sold for $13,695 and the GTN 650 is $9,815?  Does this sound about right?  If so does Avidyne really believe people will pay almost 4K more for their unit?  I find it hard to believe that to get a WAAS GPS is going to cost me 25% the value of my plane.  Does this sounds absurd to anyone or just me.  My current GPS is an Apollo GX-50 and it is old and it would be nice to have something newer with a nicer screen but this is just cost prohibitive.  Heck even the used 430W are going for $6500-7500.  The thing that gets me is my handheld 496 and my iPad with Foreflight has never lost signal and is always spot on accurate.....even in the weather.  To be honest I hardly ever use the "installed" Apollo anymore....there is simply no need other than to be "legal". 

[carusoam]

Or you can be the first to own a BK KSN770...

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Displays/Multi-Function-Displays/KSN-770

https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/products/2284-ksn-770.aspx

Staying on a budget, the used 430W is really capable.

Throw it in your mix for seeing who has the best price to meet your requirements.

You will get 25% more use out of your plane if you use it to fly IFR approaches...

Hope that helps.

[Simpson Bennett]

So I am looking at a WAAS GPS and am wondering if the GTN 650 and the IFD 440 are the only options?  The IFD440 is being sold for $13,695 and the GTN 650 is $9,815?  Does this sound about right?  If so does Avidyne really believe people will pay almost 4K more for their unit?  I find it hard to believe that to get a WAAS GPS is going to cost me 25% the value of my plane.  Does this sounds absurd to anyone or just me.  My current GPS is an Apollo GX-50 and it is old and it would be nice to have something newer with a nicer screen but this is just cost prohibitive.  Heck even the used 430W are going for $6500-7500.  The thing that gets me is my handheld 496 and my iPad with Foreflight has never lost signal and is always spot on accurate.....even in the weather.  To be honest I hardly ever use the "installed" Apollo anymore....there is simply no need other than to be "legal". 

 

The IFD440 pricing isn't a direct apples to apples comparison to the GTN650. The IFD440 offers more features than the GTN650. For instance, we have Bluetooth and WiFi built in to the box, if you wanted the GTN to have that capability, you would need to add Flightstream. We include Terrain Awareness and Forward Looking Terrain Alerts (not TAWS- in our price, there isn't a feature like that on the GTN650 unless you add TAWS-B which is something like $6k. The IFD440 also has both touch screen and knobs/buttons, the GTN650 is mainly touch screen with some very limited button capabilities. The IFD440 has an easy to use full QWERTY keyboard (in addition to a Bluetooth Keyboard we send you for free if you buy and register your IFD before the end of the year) that pops up on the screen, the GTN650 has a slide rule A-Z letter selector. The IFD440 also has a USB port that is used for database updates and software update, that USB port can also charge tablets and mobile phones. The IFDs have a very easy to use FMS, most of the information you could ever need is 1 or 2 button presses away. Those are the main features that differentiate the IFD440 from the GTN650. Let me know if you have any questions.

[FBCK]

Wasn't there talk about sending the early buyers of the 540 a free keyboard some time back.

[Oldguy]

I don't know if size is a consideration, but if you are looking to replace the GX-50 in place, I don't think there will be a fit for it. The GNS 430W, GTN 650 and IFD 440 all will need about 3/4" more space in the panel. As noted in an earlier response, be careful in evaluating units based on the price you see advertised.  Some units have more included with them feature-wise than others, and getting those extra features activated can significantly increase the cost.

 

My 430W runs well and does everything I want it to do. There are quite a few on the used market right now although they seem to be holding their price quite well. Any of the models identified so far will work well for you.

 

Best of luck.

John

[gsengle]

I'd vote 430W also

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[pinerunner]

My pet peeve will be paying for a yearly database that my tax dollars have already paid for. Every darn one of these ought to be able to take the database straight from the format that the FAA puts it out in. That should be a starting point that would allow you to fly the approaches and airways. If Jeppessen can add value to that and get us to pay for it doesn't bother me. A monopoly does.

[Marauder]

The IFD440 pricing isn't a direct apples to apples comparison to the GTN650. The IFD440 offers more features than the GTN650. For instance, we have Bluetooth and WiFi built in to the box, if you wanted the GTN to have that capability, you would need to add Flightstream. We include Terrain Awareness and Forward Looking Terrain Alerts (not TAWS- in our price, there isn't a feature like that on the GTN650 unless you add TAWS-B which is something like $6k. The IFD440 also has both touch screen and knobs/buttons, the GTN650 is mainly touch screen with some very limited button capabilities. The IFD440 has an easy to use full QWERTY keyboard (in addition to a Bluetooth Keyboard we send you for free if you buy and register your IFD before the end of the year) that pops up on the screen, the GTN650 has a slide rule A-Z letter selector. The IFD440 also has a USB port that is used for database updates and software update, that USB port can also charge tablets and mobile phones. The IFDs have a very easy to use FMS, most of the information you could ever need is 1 or 2 button presses away. Those are the main features that differentiate the IFD440 from the GTN650. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Hi Simpson -- although there are a number of features in the Avidyne product, it becomes a question whether an owner wants or needs them and is willing to pay for them. I don't need TAWS nor do I want it. So, adding it in a box has no material value for me. I don't know the IFD well enough, but if the Bluetooth or WiFi are included as you indicate and have no function currently associated with them, why would someone want to pay more for something that isn't used?

 

Unfortunately, you are competing with a sizable Gorilla and if you want to pick up market share, competing on price with similar features sets would get my attention. 

[Simpson Bennett]

Hi Simpson -- although there are a number of features in the Avidyne product, it becomes a question whether an owner wants or needs them and is willing to pay for them. I don't need TAWS nor do I want it. So, adding it in a box has no material value for me. I don't know the IFD well enough, but if the Bluetooth or WiFi are included as you indicate and have no function currently associated with them, why would someone want to pay more for something that isn't used?

 

Unfortunately, you are competing with a sizable Gorilla and if you want to pick up market share, competing on price with similar features sets would get my attention. 

 

The OP question was what went into the pricing differences between the two, I just wanted to point out that there are features in the IFD's that aren't matched in the GTN's. We heard from many pilots that having a TAWS like Terrain Alerting system was not only beneficial but added a layer of safety. I'm confused by your statement that the Bluetooth and WiFi aren't functional. The Bluetooth capabilities are there and Bluetooth keyboards will be shipping to any customer that has registered their IFD's on Myavidyne.com. The WiFi function is following close behind. We are working with application developers on what data they need from the IFD's and how they can use it in their apps.

[Simpson Bennett]

Wasn't there talk about sending the early buyers of the 540 a free keyboard some time back.

 

As long as you have registered your IFD on Myavidyne.com by the end of 2015, you will receive a free Bluetooth keyboard. 

[Alan Fox]

I find it interesting that everybody wants WAAS , its not required , you will rarely do WAAS approaches , and there are 2000 dollar adsB solutions on the horizon that will have their own TSOd position source......

[Marauder]

The OP question was what went into the pricing differences between the two, I just wanted to point out that there are features in the IFD's that aren't matched in the GTN's. We heard from many pilots that having a TAWS like Terrain Alerting system was not only beneficial but added a layer of safety. I'm confused by your statement that the Bluetooth and WiFi aren't functional. The Bluetooth capabilities are there and Bluetooth keyboards will be shipping to any customer that has registered their IFD's on Myavidyne.com. The WiFi function is following close behind. We are working with application developers on what data they need from the IFD's and how they can use it in their apps.

 

Thanks for the reply. As I indicated in my reply I don't know the IFD well enough to make specific comments on the capability of the Bluetooth or WiFi for current functions. From your reply, the Bluetooth functions with the keyboard and the WiFI is coming with future apps. For some pilots that make it an appealing feature. For others it doesn't, especially if it drives the box price up.

 

My point about the market position is from someone who has spent a decent wad of money on avionics. Although I don't like Garmin's gorilla tactics, the "a la carte" approach works. If I want FlightStream, I buy it. If I want TAWS, I buy it (but not at $6k). If your product was priced on par with the GTN series (which means you would need to strip feature, fine), I would consider it if for no other reason to give Garmin competition.  

 

And on another market opportunity. Read the threads and see how many GNS series are still selling used for $6k to $8k. You make a basic WAAS version of your product, it you will pick up business. 

 

Please don't take my comments out of context. I'm just one consumer but I am one of your target customers. 

[Marauder]

I find it interesting that everybody wants WAAS , its not required , you will rarely do WAAS approaches , and there are 2000 dollar adsB solutions on the horizon that will have their own TSOd position source......

 

Whatcha talking about Willis?! I do WAAS approaches all the time. Love LPVs... I do agree I wouldn't buy a WAAS unit just to meet the mandate, especially if I am a VFR pilot.

[aerobat95]

So what non WAAS options are out there that are new and still supported?

[aerobat95]

I do like my very simple GX-50 but there are burnt out pixels.....death is quickly approaching.

[Marauder]

I do like my very simple GX-50 but there are burnt out pixels.....death is quickly approaching.

It's painful to watch avionics die isn't it? Especially when you know a large bill will be forthcoming. Sort of like paying the undertaker?

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[aerobat95]

I know it kills me. I wish they still made the GX-50. I haven't needed WAAS in the past 4 or 5 years and honestly don't see utilizing it. I can still shoot a non precision without WAAS. Are the 430W still being serviced? If so anyone know how much longer Garmin will support them?

[gsengle]

Seems to me with 2020 requiring waas in some box and garmin not wanting to drive folks away from their solution (like the l3 lynx) they may keep doing waas upgrades for a bit. Just a guess...

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[Alan Fox]

If you think about it , Garmin has not orphaned any box that was not originally an Apollo until this year , and they still support the CNX80 , SL40 SL70 and SL30 , all Apollo stepchildren......With the amount of units out there , they will almost have to support the GNS series  for another ten years....

[Andy95W]

I do like my very simple GX-50 but there are burnt out pixels.....death is quickly approaching.

What about a local repair? There might be new displays out there as parts. Or perhaps buying a used one as a slide in replacement?

[jbs007]

For the OP, if you currently have a Garmin 430, I think the Avidyne installation will be much cheaper as it should use the same tray and panel space.  The GTN 650 requires a completely new install.  You can also sell me that Garmin 430!  If you're not replacing a 430 then it's a moot point.  If I was in the market for a fresh install I'd go Avidyne.  They're both expensive and both capable but there are 2 things that will keep me enjoying the Avidyne more; using the buttons while I'm actually flying the airplane, and not periodically paying Garmin for stuff.

[donkaye]

I find it interesting that everybody wants WAAS , its not required , you will rarely do WAAS approaches.

 

There is a significant difference between having a certified WAAS GPS and a non WAAS GPS as relates to doing approaches.  In the olden days it was "Dive and Drive" on step-down non precision approaches.  You needed to be especially careful with multiple step-downs.  Today almost all GPS approaches with WAAS have some form of Glidepath associated them.  This is a HUGE benefit of having a certified WAAS receiver and provides much greater safety in doing approaches.  Of course lower minimums associated with LPV approaches is another major benefit.  In my area here in California 200 foot lower minimums than before make all the difference in being able to get into airports like Watsonville or Tracy or other Valley airports during foggy conditions.

[aerobat95]

Thank you all for the replies and advice.....right now I am gonna wait and prolly start looking at used 430W.  

[ryoder]

15k to fly GPS approaches? Ridiculous. I'll just fly the ILS. The FAA and avionics manufacturers have gone batshit crazy.

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[Marauder]

15k to fly GPS approaches? Ridiculous. I'll just fly the ILS. The FAA and avionics manufacturers have gone batshit crazy.

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I was thinking the same way until the VOR approaches started getting replaced with GPS only approaches at the airports I flew to. My home airport is served only by a VOR approach and it is not a fun to fly, especially on the circle to land. I expect it to be replaced at some point as well.

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