mooney and a student pilot questions

[tigertrout]

Subject: mooney m20e and a student pilot

looking for some answers. I am a student pilot trying to achieve my ppl. I have been having difficulty putting in time due to lack of aircraft and so on, at my club. I have an opportunity to buy a really nice Mooney m20e super 21, it has a 0 hour engine and a new annual when the deal is done. My question is .......is this too much aircraft for me to get my license on or do I just expect to put more time in with my instructor to become proficient on this aircraft.

any help will be appreciated.

thank you in advance. Sean

[gsengle]

My bigger concern (find the other recent thread on this topic), aside from a Mooney not being an ideal trainer, is that with so little experience, are you really in a position to make a carefully considered purchase decision with the shiny new (to you) plane beckoning you? Do you know enough to value the plane? To inspect it for issues and know what those issues might be? To be sure it fits your eventual mission? Who will be choosing the overhaul shop and is it a good one or will you be getting a "bargain" overhaul? Etc etc etc... So many questions... Do you have your medical yet?

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[LANCECASPER]

You could learn it for sure, but your insurance company would probably be the roadblock.

[gsengle]

This should help a lot so we don't have to re-hash it all

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.php?/topic/16045-Mooney-as-a-first-plane

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[gsengle]

And is it posted online for sale somewhere we can look at it

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[N5756v]

Insurence on my 231k was 2400 thru aopa with zero time

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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Sean.

Yes you can. You probably just don't want to...

I had taken some time off from flying, necessitating learning how to fly again. I tried using the Mooney we had...

The subtle mistakes of being too high or too fast will cause you to go around to set up and try again.

Not going around risks bending and breaking things.

These are on top of going around because you are still learning how to fly.

For me, I returned to the C172 to demonstrate basic airmanship, then back to the Mooney for the next level.

On the other hand, if you have excess cash, excess skill and excess time spend it on basic training in a Mooney.

Or if going around several times and starting over is in your plan, you'll love learning to fly in a Mooney!

[gsengle]

Go to controller.com and you'll see there are always planes available when you're ready. As for the overhaul; I'd use a spent engine as an opportunity to get a low price and then spend my own money choosing the best and prob more expensive overhaul shop...

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[Yetti]

Solo in a plane that is not yours, then pick it up from there

[tigertrout]

thanks to everyone so far. I have a very experienced pilot/mechanic friend helping me out.

he says I should probably finish my training on a 172. However, I may buy the aircraft anyway.

so I'm looking at all my angles. FYI, The Mooney has had a complete and thorough rebuild already (books say $28,000, new paint a few years ago, long range tanks installed, a number of other upgrades, as stated it will have a new annual, the prop will need to be done next year, its not listed anywhere for sale.

thanks Sean

[bonal]

First let me say welcome. I would continue to stay in the Cessna one problem is training with an engine that has zero hours you would have a difficult time doing a proper break in unless you want to spend a lot of your instructor putting time into your engine the right way. I started out buying a 150 and what I found was that owning an airplane was as much if not more of a learning experience as flying it and that was with a 150 a mooney is a much more complex machine. Also as I'm sure you are aware mistakes in a trainer can often be forgiven where in a Mooney can be tragic. Mooneys are great aircraft but the mission right now is to learn to fly and not break things or yourself. If you can't get enough time in the 172 you might find a bargain 150 to purchase and fly for a year or so and sell for about what you paid for it. I'm sure you have read many posts concerning the purchase of a particular Mooney and the multitude of questions and concerns that come up. Are you confident you can answer these. Whatever you decide good luck for sure. Learning to fly can and should be one of life's great experiences

[N5756v]

Solo in a plane that is not yours, then pick it up from there

that's what I am doing . I would rather bend there plane then mine. but I have a guy flying the Mooney for about an hour every other week just so it don't think I have forgotten about

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[Browncbr1]

Solo in a plane that is not yours, then pick it up from there

+1. I started flying my F dual right after my solo in flight school 172. You probably want 10-15 hours dual before soloing the mooney and the insurance will require that anyway. 3-4 flights will be needed to get used to how it handles. You'll accomplish all this on your dual cross country requirement. Then you should be ready to solo the mooney. First year insurance for me when I had 11 or so hours was 2100. But, I needed 15hours dual before it would cover me solo. FAA requires 10hours dual for complex sign off anyway and most of this was done during ppl cross country parts. Make sure your cfi is well experienced and had had some time in mooneys. It took a while for my CFI to recognize that you can't let the wheels touch above about 75mph. Even my check ride examiner kept telling to to let it land well before it was ready. I just told him I was PIC and will land it when it is safe. You must become an expert on your plane because your CFI and examiner are probably not intimately familiar with mooneys. It will be rewarding though. You'd be getting off the pony and going straight to a stallion!!

[robert7467]

I did my ppl in my Mooney. I had a really good CFI that would not sign me off. I think it's because he deals with transient pilots in the Navy Flying Club and was not used to signing people off. After months of searching I found a mooney pilot that met the insurance requirements and he signed me off after the first flight. The main problem you have to worry about is finding "instructors" with Mooney experience. Now that I am working on IFR it doesn't matter because I am PIC. An airplane is an airplane. As far as insurance, I had renters because I haven't "completed" my contract yet (LLC owned the airplane) and when I was done I had enough hours for insurance.

[DXB]

It's a fantastic plane, and it's definitely possible do PPL in one, with the right instructor and some extra hours.  BUT it would be a lot simpler in most people's circumstances to do PPL in a more standard trainer while also taking time to learn about the buying process (which is complex and full of pitfalls). Do yourself a favor and keep the training phase simple.  There will be still be other good Mooneys to buy later.  

 

If you insist on going forward with purchase now, at least make sure you have the right instructor lined up and work well with him/her.  My experience with finding one for transition training is that here are a more instructors who claim the experience to train you in one than should train you in one.  

[HRM]

Subject: mooney m20e and a student pilot

looking for some answers. I am a student pilot trying to achieve my ppl. I have been having difficulty putting in time due to lack of aircraft and so on, at my club. I have an opportunity to buy a really nice Mooney m20e super 21, it has a 0 hour engine and a new annual when the deal is done. My question is .......is this too much aircraft for me to get my license on or do I just expect to put more time in with my instructor to become proficient on this aircraft.

 

Sean,

 

A Super 21 flies itself, you just guide it. It will actually save your bacon because it knows more about flying than you do. Mother Nature will try to smack you out of the air if you get careless, but the Super 21 will try to intercede for you.

 

If you learn on a Super 21, and there is no reason not to, you will be forever ruined for other aircraft because the bar that you will hold them to will be quite high.

 

You will also, and relatively quickly, develop a bizarre, some would say creepy, love affair with a machine. You will buy it expensive baubles and costly accoutrements, it will enter in and dominate your thoughts. Many women are judged to be 'high maintenance', but nothing like a Super 21.

 

Proceed carefully. 

[Marauder]

I'm not sure why people don't just buy a Cessna 150, do their training and then resell it? The two people I know who did it this way recovered most of their cost in the year they owned them.

[carl]

I don't think there is a FAA requirement of flight hours for a complex endorsement.  

 

 

from FAR PArt 61 Sec 61.31

 

 

 

Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.

• (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane, unless the person has--
  • (i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

    (ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.

  
  (2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997.

[EDNR-Cruiser]

I fully agree with Robert! If you have a good and experienced mechanic at hand who approves the Mooney, the rest is just to find a good CFI with Mooney experience!
Mooneys are really easy to fly! Even though some guys with little experience and knowledge claim the opposite.
Mooneys are gentle birds, not aggressive or mean at all... - they just want you as a pilot to know the procedures and follow them, that's all! Mooneys are fun to fly, very fast, very economic and very predictable... - all you have to do is respect their virtues (and the numbers) and you will never understand why some folks insist that Mooneys are difficult...  ;-)

[bonal]

I'm not sure why people don't just buy a Cessna 150, do their training and then resell it? The two people I know who did it this way recovered most of their cost in the year they owned them.

It's funny every one speaks about "what is your mission" and you should buy the best airplane for that mission the 150 was designed to teach students how to fly also if you install the rudder stops about 400.00 you can spin all day long full stalls till your tummy can't take any more. Owning a 150 to train worked out great for me yes you can train in a Mooney heck you can train in an F16 two seater but there are things you can do in a 150 that you would never do in a Mooney unusual attitudes to a point that would cause an Oh Shit moment in a Mooney.

[bonal]

I don't think Mooney's are difficult to fly but I don't think they provide as good a classroom as a true trainer there are things you can't do in a Mooney as well as you can in a trainer. Especially flight behind the power curve low and slow is what a 150 is made to do. any way the 150 worked great for my training so that's what I know and can share with the OP.

[Marauder]

I fully agree with Robert! If you have a good and experienced mechanic at hand who approves the Mooney, the rest is just to find a good CFI with Mooney experience!

Mooneys are really easy to fly! Even though some guys with little experience and knowledge claim the opposite.

Mooneys are gentle birds, not aggressive or mean at all... - they just want you as a pilot to know the procedures and follow them, that's all! Mooneys are fun to fly, very fast, very economic and very predictable... - all you have to do is respect their virtues (and the numbers) and you will never understand why some folks insist that Mooneys are difficult... ;-)

It's funny every one speaks about "what is your mission" and you should buy the best airplane for that mission the 150 was designed to teach students how to fly also if you install the rudder stops about 400.00 you can spin all day long full stalls till your tummy can't take any more. Owning a 150 to train worked out great for me yes you can train in a Mooney heck you can train in an F16 two seater but there are things you can do in a 150 that you would never do in a Mooney unusual attitudes to a point that would cause an Oh Shit moment in a Mooney.

If you look at how training is done in both civilian and military environments, there is a transition training model. They just don't throw the primary instructor in the rear seat of an F-15E and have him say "let's see do some stick and rudder stuff". You start off in primary trainers and work your way up. As well, you don't see civilian students get in a Baron and do primary training.

Not saying that the same needs to be done with civilian training, but I have mentored enough to know that not all students are created equal. The purpose of a trainer is to provide a minimalist approach so that proper technique can be learned without the distraction of complex systems and speed.

Can a student learn in a Mooney -- absolutely. Can all students learn in a Mooney, maybe. It comes to their ability to learn.

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[gsengle]

Trainers should be more forgiving. Especially energy management wise... Too easy to get to redline in my plane... Not great behind the power curve... I think a Cherokee is the ideal trainer that you can also then enjoy as a first plane.

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[bonal]

Another side to this coin is budget and what happens if your spending a lot on training and your Mooney decides to need a new (fill in the blank) could ground you for a time then you have to take a few steps back to regain proficiency but perhaps the OP has tons of cash and its a non issue. Also building time is easier if your airplane doesn't streak across the sky at sub light speeds like my higher compression converted C

[peevee]

my only question is, does the plane you're looking at have brakes on the right? Not a deal breaker but I'd be hesitant to take on a primary student in it personally.