carl Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 And then there is that darn hot start , warm start , cold start IO360 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I would just buy it. Do get the hang of landing and solo in a 172 or 152 before soloing in the Mooney. The Mooney isn't that hard to land in calm wind with a long runway even for a beginner. Keep the nose up and keep it in trim all the way over the numbers. I am not a cfi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 You could learn it for sure, but your insurance company would probably be the roadblock. I'm 80 hours, 0 in a Mooney. My quote is $1,500 for 1m liability and 35k hull. His might be a bit more for the fuel injection. That is with shopping around. Avemco wanted $2,700, AOPA wanted $2,500. Solo in a plane that is not yours, then pick it up from there I agree. Its 100% possible, but with the risk, I would hughly suggest learning in a 150/152 and transitioning. The gas bill alone will be half. Break other people's landing gear while learning to fly. The Cessnas can handle enormous deflection. The Mooney.....I'd suspect if you drop it once or twice from a few feet, you might break something. I'm not sure why people don't just buy a Cessna 150, do their training and then resell it? The two people I know who did it this way recovered most of their cost in the year they owned them. I paid $4,500 from 0 hours to private pilot in 42 hours with a 152 this year. Renting isn't that bad. Owning, if you buy a lemon, could face you with horizontal stabilizer crack (common occurance on people who pick up the nose of Cessnas by pushing down on the tail) and needing a $4,000 fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 My son wants to learn to fly airplanes. He's already a licensed/rated hang glider pilot, so he knows how to fly. I own a wonderful M20C. I expect I'll be in the market for a Cherokee 140 for him to use as a trainer. (I don't fit in a C150. It's either me and the gas or me and the CFI but not both.) As several others have said, there are things students can try in a trainer that I wouldn't even do in a Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Paul, from browsing some Cherokee 140 posts over on the piper forum, they're a dime a dozen right now. $20k should get you something decent w/ MoGas STC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I don't think there is a FAA requirement of flight hours for a complex endorsement. There isn't. I know of a gentleman who bought a Cessna 310 before he even acquired his medical. Went from 0-hours to Complex/High Performance/MEL Private Pilot on the day of his checkride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 There isn't. I know of a gentleman who bought a Cessna 310 before he even acquired his medical. Went from 0-hours to Complex/High Performance/MEL Private Pilot on the day of his checkride. I got a quote on insurance for a 310 once. 13k a year with a commercial, multi, instrument etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 13k. Holy crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I'd laugh in his face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Many women are judged to be 'high maintenance', but nothing like a Super 21. Proceed carefully. So true.... Don't ask me how I know. Ned Gravel Lucky steward of C-FSWR, a '65 E model at Rockcliffe, Ontario, (CYRO) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 <p> I don't think there is a FAA requirement of flight hours for a complex endorsement. from FAR PArt 61 Sec 61.31 Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane, unless the person has-- (i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and (ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane. (2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997. Maybe it was 10 hours needed for solo again, because it was a different plane... In any case, the insurance coverage needed 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Run the IO-360 at 2400rpm, 18-20" LOp and you can easily get a smooth 7gph I averaged 7-8gph during training. If you need the time, no reason to go fast. Just 120mph will do fine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Run the IO-360 at 2400rpm, 18-20" LOp and you can easily get a smooth 7gph I averaged 7-8gph during training. If you need the time, no reason to go fast. Just 120mph will do fine. Let's see what did those Mooney guys say Lop was oh wait something about Cyl temps no Egt. Mr instructor how come I have a red line between 1900 and 2300. No doubt we can fly slow and burn less fuel corse the most I could ever burn in the 150 was 5 gallons an hour in cruise. I'm not saying you can't or even should not use a Mooney to train I just don't think its the best plane for that mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Let's see what did those Mooney guys say Lop was oh wait something about Cyl temps no Egt. Mr instructor how come I have a red line between 1900 and 2300. No doubt we can fly slow and burn less fuel corse the most I could ever burn in the 150 was 5 gallons an hour in cruise. I'm not saying you can't or even should not use a Mooney to train I just don't think its the best plane for that mission. We have redlines from 1900-2250 because of harmonics. Your high compressions converted D may be different than my regular line C. But after doing some work on the carb heat and doghouse, I may be able to run slightly LOP; at any rate, she's faster than before [144 mph indicated at 9500 msl], and she's not rough at peak at altitude, either. Faster down low, too--went from 135 to 145-147 mph indicated at 3000 msl. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Tigertrout-- My favorite animal to see, and my favorite fish to chase! And now you want to fly my favorite airplane. You are on the ball! A Mooney is not terribly hard to fly, and an E is hardly a firebreathing dragon. Your car probably has more horsepower, but a lower top speed, and will use much more gas to go that lower speed. Many of us bought our Mooneys with pretty low time. Some here bought as students and completed their training in their own Mooney. So it is possible. My advice? If you want to, go for it. BUT: Get good at landing the rental first. You don't want to mess up your Mooney landing gear. Know that your PPL will take longer to complete in the Mooney. You will need much extra time before you can solo the Mooney. You will need to learn the ground reference maneuvers all over again, because the speeds and angles are all different. Make sure your instructor knows Mooneys, because they do fly a little different than trainers. Know that you must learn and fly by the numbers. Your 172 will land just fine if you are 5-10 knots too fast, and you flare 6-8 feet too high. A Mooney will float a thousand feet or more, and the landing will not be pleasant if you try it too high. Welcome to the Mooney community, and good luck with your training! Keep us informed as you progress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Luckily as far as flying and wisdom, I had a really good insructor with over 8000 HRS CFI time. He would always let me exceed my abilities, but not his. He would let me make mistakes and he could recover them at the very last split second without damaging my airplane. I am not sure how a low time CFI would work in a Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I am doing what you have described. I can't say I recommend it, but I wouldn't make a different decision given the same choices. My principal thought is that your training will be slower, because it's harder to learn things when they're coming at you so quickly and each challenge follows the next so rapidly. What everyone says is true: to succeed you absolutely need a good instructor; someone who knows the plane and is also an excellent teacher. I will say I think I've learned a lot about how handle an airplane under duress, when there's more going on than you're comfortable with and you must ensure that in dealing with it you make flying the airplane your first priority. I've seen the kinds of mistakes I can make when I get tired or am not fully clear on what I am doing, and these are good learning experiences to have with a CFI in the right seat. If you're seriously considering a purchase, call the Falcon Insurance Kerville Office for a quote. They'll know just what to do and halved quotes I'd gotten other places. Lastly, I was once in the same position as you, early on when I had the idea to buy a Mooney I thought I had a one of a kind bargain in front of me. It was the first plane I'd seen, and although I still think it was a good deal for a plane in good shape I'm very glad I didn't purchase it. I wasn't ready. I also think the 0 time engine is a really bad idea when combined with a student pilot in the left seat. See this article: http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_45_how_risky_is_going_past_tbo_195241-1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Tigertrout, As pilots we should always be assessing, and seeking to minimize, risk. Using a Mooney for primary flight training is increasing your risk. How much? That depends somewhat on the individual but there is a reason that insurance quotes are high for a student pilot in a complex aircraft. Insurance companies only care about the level of risk and the statistics say that you would be at a higher risk in a Mooney than in a trainer. It is good to hear the success stories of those on Mooneyspace who transitioned with low hours. Just don't fall into the trap of confirmation bias. Don't convince yourself it will be ok just because it worked out for some others. Do your own serious risk assessment and determine if you are ready to accept the additional risk. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert7467 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Yep, what Mooniac said! My big challenge was finding qualified instructors after my first insuructor would not sign me off. This is not a cessna where you can slam it down on the runway. You need a good instructor that knows how to correct before damage is done to the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 A manual gear Mooney would make a horrible primary trainer in my own opinion. AFter about 3 or four gear swings my arm turns to jello. Not so good when learning to land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 A few years back I did a private for an E owner. He did great. The DE tried to make him forget to put the gear down a few times but he was a pretty smart young guy. -Robert, CFII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 We have redlines from 1900-2250 because of harmonics. Your high compressions converted D may be different than my regular line C. But after doing some work on the carb heat and doghouse, I may be able to run slightly LOP; at any rate, she's faster than before [144 mph indicated at 9500 msl], and she's not rough at peak at altitude, either. Faster down low, too--went from 135 to 145-147 mph indicated at 3000 msl. I have the restriction even on my higher compression o360 but that's my point there are more things to stay ahead of any way I'm sure he's a big boy and if wants to take on the load of new ownership and flight training who am I to say Boo I say go for it buy that sucker and fly the wings off I'll be watching for your contrails crossing the sky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesual Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Grasshopper, I want to encourage you but also warn that the airplane junkyards are littered with mooney's and other complex airplanes that each have a sad story that is based on too much too soon. I'm in the camp of go for it "if" your are humble enough to spend ample time under the mentorship of a sage mooniac instructor (not a snot nose time building cfi that doesn't know mooney's) who will spend the time in the air and on the ground teaching you primary stuff but also the nuances of a mooney. If it was me, I would immerse myself and live and breathe flying for about a month. A mooney can be a little temperamental but very predictable and eager to please. (Sounds like my first girlfriend) I would hope you are a hands on kind of guy with a hanger and a willingness to pick up some stuff like airplane jacks, torque wrench, basic tools and a bunch of different lubricants, filters and hardware. If the plane doesn't already have one, better get a descent engine analyzer in the budget. Not too early to start figuring out how to take care of your investment and do it efficiently. For gawd sake stay tapped into mooneyspace. There is a wealth of knowledge here and so many are willing to guide you. All you have to do is ask. Personally, I've let CFI expire long ago but I'm still a very capable instructor. I'm certain there are many among us who would be happy to have a grasshopper join us on our mooney journeys in exchange for a little fuel or a cool frosty. Good luck in whatever you decide. Charlie Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmsense Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 If you're in a place with a lot of radio work and busy airspace learn on something slower. Also if you want to visit rougher strips get a cessna or similar. However if you are blessed with long runways and empty skies than why not? Also when you get your licence and you start taking friends for flights you'll be too busy in a money to be a good host as you'll forever be changing frequencies and worry whether your gear is locked. Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Subject: mooney m20e and a student pilot looking for some answers. I am a student pilot trying to achieve my ppl. I have been having difficulty putting in time due to lack of aircraft and so on, at my club. I have an opportunity to buy a really nice Mooney m20e super 21, it has a 0 hour engine and a new annual when the deal is done. My question is .......is this too much aircraft for me to get my license on or do I just expect to put more time in with my instructor to become proficient on this aircraft. any help will be appreciated. thank you in advance. Sean Buy it! As with any airplane, respect it and enjoy learning in it and flying it! Don't be afraid of it! It's to your advantage to learn in the airplane you'll be flying. It would be beneficial to find a Mooney instructor to teach you the ideosyncrasies of the type. http://www.mapasafety.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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