Instrument pilots - how much do you use your Nav2?

[DXB]

My M20C just entered the avionics shop to get a major panel update.  I am then planning on using this plane for all my instrument training and hopefully well beyond for real world instrument flying. My center stack will include new PMA audio panel, GTN650, KT74 transponder, and a serviceable SL40 com2. About the only decent existing piece of avionics that I have is the KN53 Nav2 radio, and I'm too much of a CB to throw it out in favor of a new low profile Nav/com.  However, all this may not quite fit into the diminutive center stack of the M20C.   If not, which item should I move to the right?  I'm thinking the Nav2, but my avionics installer, who is an IR pilot, suggested the transponder.  

 

My specific question is: how much do the instrument rated folks on here with modern panels use their Nav2 in the real world?  I know dual navs are traditionally used for fixes and they are even required for some VOR approaches.  But it seems these days that GPS substitutes well for just about any use of a second Nav?  If I keep it in the center stack, the transponder will have to move to the right. This would be fine if I got the Garmin transponder, which can be controlled by the GTN650 interface, but I'm too much of a CB for that either, since the KT74 is 1 amu cheaper for hardware and also swaps out directly into my existing KT76a tray.

[FoxMike]

If it were me I would move the transponder to the right.  Mine is located on the right and is seldom needed except for a code entry at the beginning of the flight.  Nav/Com 2 gets used a lot in my airplane.

[Mooneymite]

Real world?

 

With my WAAS GPS, I only use Nav 2 when I do my VOR checks.  

 

I agree with your installer, though....the Transponder would be my choice to move over.

[Seth]

Move the transponder and keep NAV 2 in the center.  You use it all the time to back up signals should your primary nav die on you.

 

Either for cross country (VOR tracking) or approaches, VOR, Localizer, ILS, Glideslope, etc.

 

My Com/Nave II is a KX 165.  I use it all the time for Nav purposes (even though my NAV I is a 430w).

 

Dual Glide Slopes on an instrument approach also mean that I'm double checking my cockpit management.

 

Real example - In 2014 my glide slope indicator stopped working for some reason on my primary indicator but it was working fine on the NAV II signal, so I used that indicator for the approach.

 

In my former aircraft, in 2008, my KX-155 had a capacitor fry, and thus, I lost the Com1/Nav1, so I finished the flight with my com2/nav2 units (a single radio and separate nav unit).  No second glide slope but I still had the capability for VORs and localizer approaches.  No approach needed, and I had a portable GPS unit as well.
 

-Seth

[rbridges]

I actually use my #2 Comm quite a bit to check weather and monitor ground.  My transponder is to the right since I pretty much just play with it at the beginning of the flight.  I also have the DME to the right since I use it so much.  lol

 

edit-I just realize you have a separate comm2 and nav2.  Honestly, I haven't used my nav2 since instrument training.  On my last trip, I played with it on a local VOR just for kicks and giggles.

 

[LANCECASPER]

It might make sense to go with an SL30 Nav com rather than an SL40 com - same footprint

[carusoam]

My C's nav 2 was on the right....

It was the least used radio in the stack.

It's not that far away. Won't make a difference....

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I mostly use Nav 2 to check VORs along the route and plot my position as a backup to the GPS. Keeps me busy sometimes, but enough VORs are gone now that I really notice the difference. Not a lot of actual use, even in IMC.

 

Here's a shot of the center panel in my C. Audio panel, G430W, Com 2 KY-197, Nav 2 KY 53A. See if you don't have room to fit everything right down the center. For what it's worth, it's a 1970 C model.

[PTK]

Good to have a Nav2. I use it to backup ILS approaches mostly.

 

I find I use the Comm2 more than the Nav2.

[carusoam]

I use comm 2, mostly for the memory function.

Ground, tower, weather and approach/departure.

The GTN handles the frequency memory function from the database, GPS, nav and com in one box...(right?)...

My C's Narco had places to write on the radios face with a pencil. Anyone admit to remembering that?

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

Real world?

 

With my WAAS GPS, I only use Nav 2 when I do my VOR checks.  

 

I agree with your installer, though....the Transponder would be my choice to move over.

Techically if you have a WAAS GPS you don't even NEED to do VOR checks!

[Jeff_S]

About the only reason I can think of you would want Nav2 is to back up the ILS. You won't find yourself flying VOR approaches as they are disappearing, and at any rate, they all (well, almost all) have the GPS overlay of the same approach so you can do a non-precision GPS which is much easier than a VOR approach. So notwithstanding the torture that your CFI-I will put you through during training, if you've got a GTN 650 you'll fly the RNAV/GPS approaches almost exclusively, with the occasional ILS thrown in where it is the predominant approach at more heavily-used Class D and higher airports.

 

So if for some strange reason your GTN craps out, you may still want one Nav available just to help save your bacon. But I don't think it needs to be that prominent in your panel.  (And although you'll never admit it to the FAA, you'll also have your ForeFlight with Stratus receiver as a third backup if you are having a REALLY BAD day.)

[Jerry 5TJ]

I upgraded my "C" two years ago & decided 530W and Icom 210 in the center, new transponder to the right. My second nav is a Aera510 on the yoke, which I mainly use for XM Weather.   Third nav is the iPad.

I use com 1 as main. Com 2 has dual receive, so I can monitor guard and listen to ATIS or Unicom simultaneously. A useful feature.

My P46T has dual 530s but mainly we use one for nav com & the other as an MFD. Nice but not essential. Until one fails.

[midlifeflyer]

Looking at you unity the KLN-53 seems to be a stand-alone Nav, not a Nav-Comm so Commuse isn;t what you care about. 

 

For IFR flight, I continue to use Nav 2. Even though I can often go direct, I like to file airways or VORs as waypoints and enter the VORs into Nav2 as backup if, for no other reasons than to keep those skills and habits up, help my situational awareness in case of a "proceed direct XXX VOR", and just in case there is some kind of failure on that super-dooper Nav1. The last might be the most important reason to keep it accessible - we fly with a lot of redundancy for safety purposes. I think a second Nav is part of that.

 

I tend to agree with your guy that moving the transponder makes more sense. If you use Nav 2 as I do, you are going to fiddle and enter frequencies on it far more often than you are going to change transponder codes in flight. In that situation, I'd rather have the Nav in position to reach it without a lot of extra potentially vertigo-inducing head movement

[Marauder]

Dev -- definitely the transponder. Too bad you couldn't go with the Garmin version of the transponder, you can control it through the GTN.

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[Bob_Belville]

I have both the #2 nav/com and the xponder to the right. Neither is used a lot with a GTS750 as #1 Nav/Com. I use com 2 for atis/awos and theoretically as backup for nav. I am almost always using a rnav/gps approach for the airports I frequent.

 

No big deal but I'd keep the navcom closer than the xponder.

[Mooneymite]

Techically if you have a WAAS GPS you don't even NEED to do VOR checks!

Correct.

However, after my Garmin antenna did the weird thing of blocking all GPS reception, I've resumed the VOR checks "just in case".

[1964-M20E]

I use the heck out of my NAV2 and it is located in front of the co-pilot a real PIA to access especially when I have a passenger.  I am always cross checking where I am.  Paranoid no just keeping busy and if  the GPS decides to go TU then I have a good idea of where I am.  Additionally it is the only radio I can shoot an ILS approach with since my NAV1 is GPS only.  That will change by the end of the year.

[DXB]

I mostly use Nav 2 to check VORs along the route and plot my position as a backup to the GPS. Keeps me busy sometimes, but enough VORs are gone now that I really notice the difference. Not a lot of actual use, even in IMC.

 

Here's a shot of the center panel in my C. Audio panel, G430W, Com 2 KY-197, Nav 2 KY 53A. See if you don't have room to fit everything right down the center. For what it's worth, it's a 1970 C model.

Yeah it would be nice if it all goes in the center- I think the '70C may have a bit more space there, since no J-bar.  Still, a friend's 66'C managed to squeeze in a comparable amount of stuff (pic).  I like how his is a single flat panel all the way across, and the radios have been moved left as far as possible.  

 

As a VFR guy so far, I've gotten used to messing with the transponder a fair bit in the air when I pick up or get dropped from flight following, or have my squawk code changed. I occasionally use nav1 and never use nav2. Clearly this may change after instrument rating.  Also the KT74 has a flight timer and stopwatch that will be my only panel mount timers and may get regular use if the thing is mounted close enough  - although it's simple enough to come up with alternatives for these.  

[Marauder]

Dev -- where is your engine analyzer in all of these changes?

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[DXB]

Dev -- where is your engine analyzer in all of these changes?

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Chris- there's just enough room to have the JPI 900 on the far left but still be able to center the Aspen over the control wheel and not displace key flight instruments (schematic below).   I know others on here have discouraged this setup.  However I've spent 7 months squinting nervously at my insufferable '68 factory engine gauges- I have bent sideways practically into my passenger's lap to make sure I'm reading them right.  This is both socially uncomfortable and may prove incompatible with a safe instrument scan in IMC one day.  I will enjoy having them close,and there will be no need for a remote annunciator.  Plus optimizing fuel flow and using the JPI's lean find function in the air will also be less distracting.  

[carusoam]

Dev,

Make sure you check the third dimension. There is a few things back there including how the yoke travels in space there is some up and down to match the in and out...

Bob has posted some photos from when he refreshed his panel. The photos include the tube structure that is behind the panel.

The far left side is very shallow and may limit what goes in those spots. Even some clocks are too deep for that spot.

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

Chris- there's just enough room to have the JPI 900 on the far left but still be able to center the Aspen over the control wheel and not displace key flight instruments (schematic below).   I know others on here have discouraged this setup.  However I've spent 7 months squinting nervously at my insufferable '68 factory engine gauges- I have bent sideways practically into my passenger's lap to make sure I'm reading them right.  This is both socially uncomfortable and may prove incompatible with a safe instrument scan in IMC one day.  I will enjoy having them close,and there will be no need for a remote annunciator.  Plus optimizing fuel flow and using the JPI's lean find function in the air will also be less distracting.  

Marauder will cringe to see my panel again, but you may not have seen my panel. In addition to a large GTN750 I was determined that the stormscope stay in my field of vision and I had to have a spot for the STEC50 meaning another narrow stack. I put the JPI EDM 930 above the navcom 2 and xponder to the right of the main stack. IMNSHO, it is near perfect.

[Bob_Belville]

Dev,

Make sure you check the third dimension. There is a few things back there including how the yoke travels in space there is some up and down to match the in and out...

Bob has posted some photos from when he refreshed his panel. The photos include the tube structure that is behind the panel.

The far left side is very shallow and may limit what goes in those spots. Even some clocks are too deep for that spot.

Best regards,

-a-

Excellent point. I had to remove my 930 to return it to the factory. There was barely room to get it out and my unit is much further from the end of the panel than your CAD layout.

[Hank]

. . . Still, a friend's 66'C managed to squeeze in a comparable amount of stuff (pic).  I like how his is a single flat panel all the way across, and the radios have been moved left as far as possible.  

 

. . . Also the KT74 has a flight timer and stopwatch that will be my only panel mount timers and may get regular use if the thing is mounted close enough  - although it's simple enough to come up with alternatives for these.

Talk to your avionics installer and see how much room/depth you need for each, how much space you have, and see what you can do. Cutting a new panel will add to the cost.

Does your C not have a clock in the yoke? I use mine in every flight, to log time if nothing else. The resetable red hands not only give me time for my logbook, but also remind me to change tanks every time the white minute hand is over the red one.