Unintensional spin ( 201)

[Resanborn]

My partner with over 1500 hours flight time 350 in Mooneys practicing slow flight entered a spin. The 201 spins rather quickly disorienting if you are looking out the window at the ground! He froze at the controls trying to pull back on the yoke. We probably did three full revolutions before I was able to neutralize the yoke push forward and right rudder(left spin) the plane responde exactly as we have been taught. I would not go out and seek this experience. I only bring this up to show it can happen to any one. So grab a CFI and get some spin upset training it could save your life! I was sure thankful that I have had real spin training in a Cessna 150 Aerobat. IT WAS SCARRY!

[carusoam]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Resanborn.

What altitude did the event start at, and recover at?

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

You  did well to recover! Our planes are not known for good spin recovery technique, thus the prohibition against spinner in the POH.

 

Since you are one of the few, please post details for our edification, as I never intend to permit a spin to even start in my Mooney.

[fantom]

PARE:

P=Power - Off.

A=Ailerons - Neutral (& flaps up).

R=Rudder - Full Opposite, quickly.

E=Elevator - Briskly Through Neutral.

Hold these inputs until rotation stops, which can be two or three rotations and several thousand feet in a Mooney, then:

Rudder - Neutral.

Elevator - Recover to Straight and Level.

Upon landing, kiss ground and change underwear.

[MooneyBob]

.

[Marauder]

.

You been speechless a few times Bob!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MooneyBob]

You been speechless a few times Bob!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Busted. I don't know if this is right way to do it but I just put the period there to follow up the topic in " My Content". But in this case I am speechless. I wasn't too eager to practice my stalls too after I found out how quickly it drops the wing. 

[Shadrach]

I do not have a lot of spin training (Something I've been rectifying in a Decathlon). Posts like these give me pause. We often say that Mooney's don't recover well from spins. It seems to me from reading other's experiences that given proper altitude and control inputs, Mooney's spin and recover just fine...it's the pilots that don't recover.

[Marauder]

Busted. I don't know if this is right way to do it but I just put the period there to follow up the topic in " My Content". But in this case I am speechless. I wasn't too eager to practice my stalls too after I found out how quickly it drops the wing.

I thought it was because you said something you regretted.

Not sure if you are viewing it from the web or Tapatalk, but I know you can "subscribe" to a thread and it will notify you of further activity on it.

I just went to the web view, you can use the "follow this topic" button to do the same.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

Ross, you should read what Bob Kromer says about certification spins in Mooneys. All counterspin control moves should be brisk, immediate and to the limits. They are on the MAPA site somewhere. Not a maneuver for most of us.

[Marauder]

Anyone who experienced a spin in a Mooney doesn't forget it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

Ross, you should read what Bob Kromer says about certification spins in Mooneys. All counterspin control moves should be brisk, immediate and to the limits. They are on the MAPA site somewhere. Not a maneuver for most of us.

Bob will be at the Mooney Summit III talking about tips from Mooney flight testing and maximizing Mooney performance.

[mike_elliott]

My partner with over 1500 hours flight time 350 in Mooneys practicing slow flight entered a spin. The 201 spins rather quickly disorienting if you are looking out the window at the ground! He froze at the controls trying to pull back on the yoke. We probably did three full revolutions before I was able to neutralize the yoke push forward and right rudder(left spin) the plane responde exactly as we have been taught. I would not go out and seek this experience. I only bring this up to show it can happen to any one. So grab a CFI and get some spin upset training it could save your life! I was sure thankful that I have had real spin training in a Cessna 150 Aerobat. IT WAS SCARRY!

Thanks for sharing. As I am sure you are aware, the reason one enters a spin is because of an uncoordinated stall. It sounds like this happened while at the bottom edge of the envelope. P factor will cause the left wing to drop if you do not have enough right rudder in the slow flight regime, something I have noticed Mooney pilots tend to get relaxed about because of the interconnected ailerons and rudder. Some tail dragger time will fix this. Another dangerous time is on a balked or bounced landing go around. You are 8 feet up after a bounce and decide to firewall it and go around. You better have some right rudder in it or you may prang the left wing and cartwheel, ending UFOW. This is especially true with the O3's and other fire breathing high horse Mooneys.  

Great job of recovery and doing what is needed.

[Shadrach]

Ross, you should read what Bob Kromer says about certification spins in Mooneys. All counterspin control moves should be brisk, immediate and to the limits. They are on the MAPA site somewhere. Not a maneuver for most of us.

Agree with you on all points. but brisk recovery movements are just good airmanship when trying to recover from a spin. It's not like you're yanking and banking.

I've read everything I can find on Mooney spins from Bob to Don. I've scoured youtube for clips of Mooney spins (only one to date and whether it's a spin is debatable). I don't think intentional (or otherwise) spins in a Mooney are a maneuver for any of us (factory test pilots excluded).

However, I think that the maneuver has been elevated to near "certain death" status in some circles and I feel that is counter productive in the same way that the old "178 sec to live" when a VFR pilot goes inadvertently into IMC. I think that the terror that comes from believing that one is in an unrecoverable situation only inhibits one's ability to perform the necessary tasks to get out of said "unrecoverable" situation.

Confidence is a powerful thing. It can both kill you and save your a$$. If you're sitting in a Mooney with the world spinning about you while descending 4000ft per minute, you'll need all the confidence you can get, not a little voice saying "we're screwed"...

[Seth]

It has been drilled into my head that if I am ever in a bad situation, do not pull up.  If going too fast that can break your airplane.  If going too slow, that can cause a stall.  I've been told, in many situations, push forward - it unloads the wing, and allows for you to figure out what's going on, even in an instant, maybe buy you a few seconds. 

 

Spin.  - Stick forward is part of the recovery

 

Stall - stick forward is part of the recovery

 

Engine loss after takeoff - stick forward is part of the immediate reaction to avoid a stall/spin

 

Unusual attitude / Upset training - stick forward unloads the wings, even in a very fast dive, until you know what way is up and how to gently pull out of the dive.  When at a high angle of attack climb or bank, stick forward unloads the wings and gives you a little more time before the stall to resume level flight or adding power before the stall.

 

Times where stick forward is not a good idea:  

-When buzzing a house, on a low approach, or flying illegally low (or near the surface of water with no ships around).

-During the flare for landing

-Pushing too many negative G's.

 

In an emergency try not to instinctively pull back, but instead, if you have to have an instantaneous reaction prior to figuring out what is going on, unload the wing - stick forward (best to observe first and do nothing, then act!).

 

-Seth

[fantom]

Years ago when I was young and foolish, an Air Force buddy and I climbed to 10,000 ft to test the stall/spin characteristics of a new M20J.

Landing configuration, low power setting, nose up, hold it until typical docile stall, then nose up more, until spin entry. Gentile entry, fall off to the left (the stalled wing), and down we go. Being a Mooney is was smooth. Let it go around once, lost almost 1,000 ft. IIRC then fast PARE corrections. Went around another one and a half times, lost another 1,500 ft., to a smooth Mooney recovery. Remember, this was two current Air Force fighter pilots.

Neither one of us has tried it again in a Mooney. Not for weekend pilots, never for timid flyers, and most assuredly not safer with some curious CFI. They don't have a good record.

Remember, you can stall/spin from any attitude and speed. One reason an AOA is a much better investment, IMO, than that third or forth GPS.

In conclusion stay far away from stall/spins in your Mooney, and if everything turns to $hit, panic is your enemy, fly that plane until you've stopped. Fly safe out there.

[ArtVandelay]

I'm curious, informal poll : when doing slow flight & stalls, what altitude do you climb to?

[EDNR-Cruiser]

Sidenote: this does not mean you should not practice slow flight manouvers in your Mooney!
The Mooney behaves quite nicely when the stall horn starts beeping and the controls begin to feel mushy. Even when a wing drops it does not begin to spin immediately. I always had about half a second (which is forever if you are waiting for it) to push the yoke forward, throttle in and pull her up gently.
You must never try to catch the dropping wing with the ailerons though... - that would be the immediate entry into a nice solid spin. Always try to gain some speed first, you have some altitude to lose (hopefully) and the Mooney does not behave like a beast - unless you're pulling the yoke and work the ailerons but then I would become a beast too...
For safety reasons I do not practice slow flight manouvers below 3000ft AGL, although I hardly lose more than 500ft as long as I do not enter a spin but in case you do, you definitely need some altitude to recover.

[Shadrach]

I have done slow flight and power off stalls and still do. I shoot for 3500 to 4000ft AGL. I have done full power slow flight to the buffet at about 6000ft AGL. I was test flying the aircraft after hanging an IRAN'd engine and I did not want to back the power off for the first few hours, I also needed a flight review so we combined the test flight with the FR. We were trying to do a full power departure stall, without slowing the plane down. It was a cold day in early March. We started at 4000ft when I pulled back...and back...and back some more crossing through 6000 and the nose still at what felt like 80 degrees or so, I got a small buffet just as I told the instructor that I was getting nervous. I nosed over to level flight and told him that I hoped that was good enough.

[Cruiser]

So, is your 1500 hr/350 hr in a Mooney partner allowed to fly the plane again?

 

If he hasn't grounded himself, then you should....... until there is a solution for his freezing on the controls.

[ryoder]

My partner with over 1500 hours flight time 350 in Mooneys practicing slow flight entered a spin. The 201 spins rather quickly disorienting if you are looking out the window at the ground! He froze at the controls trying to pull back on the yoke. We probably did three full revolutions before I was able to neutralize the yoke push forward and right rudder(left spin) the plane responde exactly as we have been taught. I would not go out and seek this experience. I only bring this up to show it can happen to any one. So grab a CFI and get some spin upset training it could save your life! I was sure thankful that I have had real spin training in a Cessna 150 Aerobat. IT WAS SCARRY!

Part of me believes this and is concerned. I have not practiced stalls solo and probably won't in the Mooney although I have zillions of stalls in a 172.

Part of me wants to call BS that such an experienced Mooney pilot would freeze.

On my second solo cross country I practiced power on stalls on the 172 and had way too much airspeed at entry. It made staying coordinated very difficult. I stalled uncoordinated and entered a sharp turn to the left. I instinctively and immediately countered with full right rudder and enjoyed my new view 90 degrees opposite my original heading. Needless to say I flew back with an improved awareness of the incipient spin. I talked to my CFI and he kind of smiled.

I won't practice these in the Mooney without adult supervision.

[Marauder]

Part of me wants to call BS that such an experienced Mooney pilot would freeze.

Fear can change you... I remember being on a bike ride going down a hill going way faster than I should have been (50 mph). It was dusk and at the bottom there was a bend and a stone wall. I panicked and locked the brakes. For an instant I thought I was done for, but ironically something I learned as a pilot kicked in.

There was an old time pilot who told me once that "if bad sh$t happens while you are flying, undo the last thing you did". So, I let go of the brakes, the tires grabbed and I steered away from the wall.

Some fight to the end, others end the fight and succumb...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Alan Fox]

It is not a cute entry , wing drop ,  It is about a second from flying to halfway into the first spin.....Its no picnic...

[Seth]

I'm curious, informal poll : when doing slow flight & stalls, what altitude do you climb to?

I smell a poll topic brewing.

 

For slow flight 3,000

 

For intentional stalls, 5,000

 

-Seth

[Piloto]

A spin is more prone to occur when turning at very low speed such as turning base to final or downwind departure. Just keep up the speed because no Top Gun pilot will escape alive from a stall on these instances.

 

José