eman1200 Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 1968 C vs 1968 G. Assume very similar stats all around, similar avionics, TTAF/E, paint/interior. All very similar, the C is considerably cheaper in asking price. Vague, I know, just looking for thoughts, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 IMHO The G is underpowered for that airframe, and the performance is underwhelming. I would not even consider a G. It is a buyers marker and there are plenty of great deals on Cs, Es, and Fs, and even Js for that matter. Apologies in advance to all the G owners out there. Just my opinion, and I have flown plenty of all of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The G is a mid-body (life the F and J), but with the same 180 hp O-360 as the C. The higher weight on the smaller engine makes for a slower plane with less climb. In production, few sold, as most people wanting more room bought the F to have more power to haul around the extra weight. There used to be a couple of G owners here who posted regularly. Seems one painted his plane in LSU colors. Andrew? And a military pilot near DC whose name escapes me. Maybe they will add some G experience here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Go fly them both. I think that folks make too much of the power deficit. I've never understood why a perfectly wonderful airplane like the C suddenly becomes a "Dog" with the addition of 70lbs and 10" stretch. To all the C owners out there, do your planes turn into dogs when put a grade schooler in the back? All other things being equal, when it comes to G Vs C I'm betting the performance Δ is less than 5%. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The G is a mid-body (life the F and J), but with the same 180 hp O-360 as the C. The higher weight on the smaller engine makes for a slower plane with less climb. In production, few sold, as most people wanting more room bought the F to have more power to haul around the extra weight. There used to be a couple of G owners here who posted regularly. Seems one painted his plane in LSU colors. Andrew? And a military pilot near DC whose name escapes me. Maybe they will add some G experience here. Hank, I think the main reason folks opted for an F over a G was payload, not the extra 70lbs of airplane. From what I can find, the G's MGTW is 2525lbs, 50lbs less than a C. And 215lbs less than an F. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 And be honest how many E's and F's do you think are making book horsepower. Yes you do start with a 20 hp deficit but like Shad points out an additional 70 pounds has no real impact on my C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 IMO, if you keep the G in perspective, it can be a heck of deal. The few I've seen for sale have often been well equipped and in very good condition. That's because their value over the years has always been low and the marginal planes have been scrapped. Yes, they are among the slowest of the M20s (the others are the original M20 and the M20D with fixed gear), but it is still faster than a Piper Arrow. When taken into the broader context of the whole GA market, it can be a pretty good deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 And be honest how many E's and F's do you think are making book horsepower. Yes you do start with a 20 hp deficit but like Shad points out an additional 70 pounds has no real impact on my C. I've owned both "C" and "E" models with stock airframes. Looking back my logs at ~1200 hours travel in the two of them the book times on identical routes are indistinguishable: Never mind the 'extra' 20 hp the "E" supposedly offered. So I'd advise eman1200 to buy the better plane of the two. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is the MAPA flight testing report of the G model. They also have evaluations most of the other models. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20G%20Evaluation/M20G_Eval.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The G is a mid-body (life the F and J), but with the same 180 hp O-360 as the C. The higher weight on the smaller engine makes for a slower plane with less climb. In production, few sold, as most people wanting more room bought the F to have more power to haul around the extra weight. There used to be a couple of G owners here who posted regularly. Seems one painted his plane in LSU colors. Andrew? And a military pilot near DC whose name escapes me. Maybe they will add some G experience here. Andrew sold his G over a year ago and went to a K. I think he sold his G in USA because he retained his tail letters for the K. Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is the MAPA flight testing report of the G model. They also have evaluations most of the other models. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20G%20Evaluation/M20G_Eval.htm It's a great article. For me, the climb rate tells the story. The G is the least performing. Why pay a premium for it, if all else is equal? On the other hand, if you find one in great shape with good avionics, then I'd certainly consider it. M20E IO-360 200 794 FPM M20F IO-360 200 702 FPM M20C O-360 180 657 FPM M20G O-360 180 600 FPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted May 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is the MAPA flight testing report of the G model. They also have evaluations most of the other models. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20G%20Evaluation/M20G_Eval.htm It's a great article. For me, the climb rate tells the story. The G is the least performing. Why pay a premium for it, if all else is equal? On the other hand, if you find one in great shape with good avionics, then I'd certainly consider it. M20E IO-360 200 794 FPM M20F IO-360 200 702 FPM M20C O-360 180 657 FPM M20G O-360 180 600 FPM thanks, that's good article, I've read that before. I understand the G's #'s are "the lowest", but they're still pretty good for the bulk of my missions. I'll be talking to a local guy about a C that's been for sale for a while and is at the high end of my price range. I know someone mentioned the folks at MRN for a mooney PPi, I wish I had more options, I simply don't know any specialists yet. of course if I save up for another 20 years, I should be able to swing a J and just be done with it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 yes, the climb rate does tell the story. 600FPM average time to climb to 10,000' is excellent for a 4 plc SE recip aircraft...especially on a 180hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I've no idea. What's interesting is the G is 50lbs lighter than the F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Jim, Ross is commenting on the airframe weight of Gs being less than the F. I think this is the engine, the IOs weigh more than the Os. The question still remains,why is gross for the G less than my C? I'm at or near gross only when heading on vacation with the wife or when taking another couple on a burger run. Last weekend, I flew out and back solo, and did good to have 500 fpm when reaching 9500 northeast bound or 10,000 coming home. Fell to 350-400 fpm a couple of times when I wasn't watching it closely. Still managed to indicate 145 mph at 9500 though (172 mph; book is 164). I was running 20"/2500 and 25° ROP. Sometimes extra space in back would be nice, like when heading out for a week. I always run out of cube! The G has extra back seat legroom AND longer baggage space. But like always, it comes down to condition first, then equipment. Buy the best condition plane you can find, and prioritize the equipment you want. It's much, much cheaper to buy an equipped plane than to install avionics on your dime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I'm at or near gross only when heading on vacation with the wife or when taking another couple on a burger run. I think your wife must pack luggage like mine does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yup, I'm talking empty weight. The G is heavier than the C by 70lbs but lighter than the F by 50lbs. The Angle valve engine is around 30lbs heavier, not sure where the other 20lbs comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Well,, Starting with the G test article, and referring to this site, http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Mooney/46.htm the G is 11 kts slower than the C. and is stuck with 50lbs lower gross. even with 50lbs more gross it would probably still climb 57fpm less than the C. and the F is 4kts slower than an E, even though the F has 165lbs more gross. the E should have the same gross as the F and still climb 92fpm more, maybe a little less. the F has a useful load of 1100lbs. the E is 975lbs, but if it had the upped gross it would have a useful load of 1140lbs,, and still the most speed. the C has a useful load of 1050lbs, and second fastest speed. the G useful load is only 940lbs (really not too bad), but if the gross was upped to same as C, useful load would be 990lbs. it would still be slowest of all, but would it be slower/slower? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Sounds good, mpg (great name for a fan of the most economical factory built single engine plane!). But in the last 40-50 years, these planes have been individually mood die, and few if any will have as much Useful Load as you quote. For instance, my C has 970 lbs nit 1050, but it still makes book speed or higher. Review the papers for each plane and determine if you can live with what its' individual UL is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 1) people like Mooneys for speed and efficiency... 2) if they like the lower cost they get the B and C or D versions. 3) if they value fuel injection, they go E 4) if they value putting four adults in the plane, the F and G look good. 5) the G is biased towards shorter distances than the F. 6) the F is really appreciated by people that prefer FI over carbs. 7) J is like the second version of the F. 8) K is the high altitude traveler of the J. 9) L is the Long Body in search of a power plant. 10) M is the first high altitude Long Body 11) R and S are the modern N/A Long Bodies 12) TN the modern high altitude Mooney traveler...aka Acclaim or M20S(TN) They are all good. Prices vary in different ways because market pressures vary. It is very challenging to become an educated buyer if you have never defined your 'mission'. Try defining a mission before you have ever owned a plane. Try to determine how much 20 or 30 hp is worth to you when you can't try it before you buy it. Which one do you appreciate more than the others(today). Things change over time... I think I would be happiest with a 310hp Acclaim... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Sounds good, mpg (great name for a fan of the most economical factory built single engine plane!). But in the last 40-50 years, these planes have been individually mood die, and few if any will have as much Useful Load as you quote. For instance, my C has 970 lbs nit 1050, but it still makes book speed or higher. Review the papers for each plane and determine if you can live with what its' individual UL is. This has been fun for me... I enjoy the math.. Folks often say that short Mooneys,,, and Cherokees,, arent 4 place planes,, but,,,, My mission, if I had friends, and wanted to travel very far, might be Seattle to Reno! 700 sm, in your C, at 158 = 4.43 hr x 9gph +1 hr reserve = 48.9 gal,,, = 293 lbs, plus me and my faa 170 lbs friend, our 2 pretty, petite 110 lbs wives + 116 lbs of baggage = 970 lbs! thats non stop to Reno in 4.43 hr! But,, Nobody wants to sit that long,,, the girls are gonna need to pee!!!! Oh yea,, and have lunch.... Sooo with that all in mind,,,,, I would add , that the Only Good reason for the G,, is back seat leg room!!!! Lets go to Reno again,,, but not in your C,,,, the possible G instead.... With a pee and lunch stop... 350 sm at 147 = 2.38 hr x 9gph = 1 hr reserve = 30.43 gal = 182 lbs, plus me and my faa 170 lbs friend, our pretty, petite 110 lbs wives + 118 lbs of baggage = 860 lbs!!! Notice, your C and the G both have lost 80 lbs useful load in their old age? But the G will still go the right distance with 4 folks and bags,,, that need to pee, and have lunch!! I and my my friend wouldnt mind stretching our legs too,, but we dont complain... Think of the baggage you could carry in a "one stop' trip to Reno... On a related but kinda non topic note, folks should notice,,,, that folks selling Gs Always! price them at the same level as a comparable F!!! P.S. An over weight, and cramped E could do the same straight through flight in 4.4 hr,, but with only 45 lbs of baggage... OTOH,,, An over weight F could do the same straight through trip as your C or the E in more comfort in 4.49 hr! and carry 164 lbs of baggage!!! And you know? An over weight G could make the straight through trip too? In 4.8 hr,,, But it would gross out,,, 11... lbs over with No baggage...... Do you realize that the fastest Mooney only beats the slowest Mooney on the straight through flight to Reno by,,,,, 23!!!!! minutes?????? I think that is 8 percent!! But the girls still need to pee,,, and have lunch!!! And their is that leg stretching thing,,, we dont complain about..... Also, consider,, Over haul of an O-360 is much Cheaper than the same on an IO-360,, really!!! Soooo in the overall scheme of all the things,,, the M20 C,,, is the Best value in a Mooney!!! Especially if you are a truly,,, Cheep Bastard! just my 17 cents... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted June 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Thanks for the feedback! I believe I'll be able to get a test flight in the local C, I'll report back after that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Depending on your previous flight experience... That first flight in a local M20C can be amazing...intriguing...beguiling...addicting...educating... The first flight may get stuck deep in your memory. It has been 15 years since my first local flight in an M20C... Stuff I remember... -There is no 'both' position on the fuel selector. -The climb rate of 180 hp is huge. My 108hp C152 experience was a set-up for success. Everything after that seemed immensely more powerful... Let the adventure begin! Good luck. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I am just glad it wasn't C vs. E....After reading about how much my plane sucks gas and is hard to start I had to go out to the hanger and make sure it was an E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted June 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 dang it, I probably won't be able to check out the C until at least sunday at best. called MRN about a PPi though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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