Looking at a m20j Sunday - what should I look for?

[Heybluez]

I'm looking for my first plane. I think I've settled on a m20j as the one. Looking at one this Sunday in person. What should I look for? Heard leaking fuel tanks is one thing... Anything else? What questions should I ask?

Thanks!

MJP

[PaulB]

There are a few prebuy checklists out there. I think laser has one on their website but a few things come to mind. Check the nose gear truss for dents, condition and age of the gear donuts, fuel leaks as you mentioned, and stability of the tail. I'm sure others will chime in as well with other good suggestions. Might be worthwhile to watch the owner fly it to see if they have been treating the engine well

[DonMuncy]

Corrosion is the absolute first thing to know about. The rest is just a matter of how much money and effort it will take to make right.

[PaulB]

Oh and see if SB 208 has been complied with. It has to do with corrosion inspection and replacement of old insulation.

[Guest]

I'm looking for my first plane. I think I've settled on a m20j as the one. Looking at one this Sunday in person. What should I look for? Heard leaking fuel tanks is one thing... Anything else? What questions should I ask?

Thanks!

MJP

Here's some help,

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11864-ppi-check-list/?hl=%2Bpurchase+%2Bcheck+%2Blist#entry147376

Clarence

[rbridges]

I'm looking for my first plane. I think I've settled on a m20j as the one. Looking at one this Sunday in person. What should I look for? Heard leaking fuel tanks is one thing... Anything else? What questions should I ask?

Thanks!

MJP

 

go through the post that Clarence gave you, but make sure you get a thorough pre buy if things get serious.  Mooneys are awesome, but there are some potential money pits to avoid.

[laytonl]

I agree with all of the above. corrosion is the big deal. Be sure that the structure is inspected in the rear footwell at the wing spar and sidewall and also remove the pilots sidewall to check for corrosion under the storm window. Both of these locations are very important.

As Don said, everything else can be fixed with money. Tank reseals are $8k so consider that may be in your future if you see blue stains under the wing or in the wheel wells. You really need a good mechanic checkout the airplane. Lee

[bonal]

+1 on the pre buy if it goes beyond your first inspection. Corrosion for sure also check exhaust system for leaks get a shop vac put some wadding around the hose end to make a seal plug the hose into blow hole and pressurize the system then some soapy water in a spay bottle look for bubbles. This is an easy test you can do yourself.

[aaronk25]

Check the engine logs, if the plane hasn't been flow at least 50-100 hours a year or sat unused for more than a couple weeks at a time, it most likely need a camshaft. It's about 8k by the time you pull the engine and re-install with parts.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I think knowing if it has sat for a couple of weeks would be tough...and I highly doubt that this is what would kill a camshaft. Two weeks, REALLY? A little dramatic...I 100% agree that if sitting idle (flying under 50 hours ANY year in a log is a big ??? on engine.

[Shadrach]

I think knowing if it has sat for a couple of weeks would be tough...and I highly doubt that this is what would kill a camshaft. Two weeks, REALLY? A little dramatic...I 100% agree that if sitting idle (flying under 50 hours ANY year in a log is a big ??? on engine.

Maybe maybe not. Our engine has flown well under 50hours some years. I unfortunately got to see the internals at 10yrs and 800SMOH . No cam issues at all. In fact the internals looked great save for one exhaust valve.  I agree that the 2 weeks thing is a bit dramatic.

[ArtVandelay]

I think it's better to find with high time on the engine, priced accordingly, then you don't have to worry about, every hour is a bonus.

[bonal]

Also wanted to nit pick your choice of words picking an M20J is hardly "settlling" I know that's not what you meant. Any Mooney is a great choice and a J is one of the best. Good luck take your time and be more critical and detailed on your scrutiny than you have ever been before.

[Heybluez]

Thanks all! This is very helpful.

Bonal, yes, I did not mean any disrespect I should have said I've chosen the m20j as my first plane... This is after spending months looking at my mission and what platforms would work and what I could afford! Nervous but excited all at the same time.

[carusoam]

Start organizing.

1) finance.

2) PPI.

3) insurance.

4) Mooney specific flight instruction.

5) title insurance. (Proof that you are buying the machine from the proper owner)

Don't be afraid to use a written Purchase Agreement to document everything included or excluded in the deal.

Things that come to mind regarding machine purchases.

Best regards,

-a-

[aaronk25]

I should have added repeatedly, 2 the 2 weeks. More so if the operator is running 50 hour oil changes and the extended sitting time is in the latter part of the oil change where acid levels are higher.....I am extremely at times and dramatic . Ok let's say a month....everyone happy now

[urbanti]

Here are a couple of areas that can tell you something:

- Underneath the wings, look at fittings that protrude down and see if any of them look like they have been ground down by contact with the runway on a gear up;

- Around the wings - look for sheetmetal skin patches that weren't there when the plane left the factory;

- Look into the back of the inside of the fuselage by pulling the large access panel behind the left wing root (i.e. where the battery is located) - requires a flat head screwdriver to turn the 1/4 turn screws. You can see the condition of the aircraft skin, and the condition of the long control tubes that extend into the tail.

- Lay on your back under the plane under the cockpit and remove an access panel that allows you to see the condition of the steel control tubes and the condition of the aircraft structure.

None of these constitute a substitute for a real pre-buy by someone who knows Mooneys. And, frankly, until you've looked inside a half a dozen of them it's hard to have a sense of what a 40 year old Mooney should look like. But it can provide clues.

Tim

[Heybluez]

In regard to the camshaft advice above, according to the logs it has flown less than 50 hours over the past 3 years. It has had annuals and all that but not really flying. Should this affect my offer price? Is it "most likely $8k" as described above? Thanks!

[Guest]

Sitting is not necessarily a death sentence for the camshaft. There are too many factors to consider, oil type would be high on my list(Aeroshell 15W50) If you get down to a PPI and you are concerned about lack of flying, negotiate removal of two cylinders as part of the inspection. Labour for the inspection at your expense and if corrosion is discovered repair of the engine at the sellers expense.

Clarence

[aaronk25]

In regard to the camshaft advice above, according to the logs it has flown less than 50 hours over the past 3 years. It has had annuals and all that but not really flying. Should this affect my offer price? Is it "most likely $8k" as described above? Thanks!

Just search camshaft on this site and there is several tales about "I bought this xyz plane and flew it 50-200hours in the past 3months- 1 year and now there is metal in the filter".....

Most of the folks here that say "don't worry about it" are ones who only fly 50 hours a year so in a way they attempt to make themselves feel better about there own situation by falsely re-assuring you it's ok to buy a plane that hasn't flown much.

The fact is even under normal operating conditions the camshaft and lifter interfaces are operating close to or right at there maximum duty cycle. When the engine is shut down and not ran for a month the lil runs of the cam and shinny exposed steel is exposed. If there is any moisture present it will rust and when started the rust scrapes off and leaves tiny pits. The oil can't bridge the pits and rapid wear (makes metal) starts.

Hey it's not a huge deal and most of the cost is labor as the camshaft is only about $1,200 or so but its removing and replacing the engine $1,500 or so, disassembling the cylinders, splitting the case, seals ect that add up.

If our engines were more modern where the cam could be changed on the plane in a few hours I wouldn't even bring it up.

All I'd hate to see happen is you say hey thing engine xyz hours left on it before TBO, so you pay more for it darn well counting on the engine to make TBO and get a year down the road and it starts polluting the filter with metal.

Airframe corrosion is a bigger deal, as someone mentioned eariler.

[aaronk25]

Ha! Never thought of 50 1 hour flights in a year....that would be a winner! See your always thinking out of the box....

[urbanti]

A couple of quick notes:

- Many if not most sellers will be resistant to having cylinders pulled as part of a pre-buy

- While its always better to purchase an airplane that has been continuously flown and well cared-for, many of the planes that are for sale have sat for some period of time.

- 50 hours over 3 years would not immediately disqualify an otherwise attractive candidate to me, but it would make an engine inspection during the prebuy an area of increased emphasis. So far I've had good luck trusting my A&P's analysis/intuition on engine condition during pre-buy inspections.

- For the record I fly about 300 hours a year so the engines get a chance to prove themselves fairly promptly

good luck

Tim

[Heybluez]

I checked it out today and it's nice. We even took it flying. Overall, I really like this plane. That said, I checked as much as I could and things looked good to me but, of course, just enough for me to think about an offer and get a PPI . That said, see the attached picture... This is under the wing... Are the streaks from fuel tanks weeping?

Thanks!

[kmyfm20s]

Looks like a loose rivet to me. The aluminum dust will streak if it get wet.

[carusoam]

Use a white paper towel to clean it...blue color= fuel...

Have the owner, or have him let you open that inspection panel. If that were fuel. There is a lot of blue on the other side.

is that crunched leading edge sheet metal or just an artifact of photography...?

Keep in mind, most owners probably won't appreciate you getting too close with tools without their specific permission. They will have honest fear of accidental damage.

The good news is, you are actually interested in buying this specific plane. Owners have more flexibility with people that are not 'tire kickers'.

Good reasons to have a PPI,

-a-