Talked to a student pilot, not told to use trim

[ryoder]

The line guy is working on his private pilot and he flies a 152. We were talking about emergency operations and best glide speed which was 60 kts for his plane. He said he pitched for 60 and then I said, and then? So he wasn't trained to trim for 60 hands off. He also doesn't trim on climb out or on final. The airport manager said people learn trim later on after the checkride. I disagree. I think that trimming is essential in primary training and when I fly with a friend and he has the controls I have him trim after any configuration change.

[201er]

It's been a really long time sknce I've flown a 152, but I can atest that there are some aircraft where trim is merely for convenience but largely unimportant. Then there are planes like the Mooney where it is nearly impossible to manage the controls without trim. I think it had a lot to do with the speed differences possible. A 152 flies maybe 50-100 knots, Mooney does 60-160 and beyond so it is much more speed difference and a bigger range of pitch.

[carusoam]

The two seat C152 is a challenge to move the CG. All the variable weight is in a narrow line about the pilot and passenger with the fuel overhead....

I learned to use trim in it. I saw a great demonstration of trimming in steep turns by the master CFI in my last lesson. Hands-off trimmed steep turns! He new exactly where to set the trim, no bracketing required.

We have a local V intersection named in his honor.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

I haven't been away from my C150 for too long and I can say the whole point of flight training is to learn all the aspects of flight control proper use of and understanding of the functionality of trim being as important as any other when it comes to flight control. A C150 if improperly trimmed can be very heavy on the controlles. Maintaining correct pitch in low speed 30 and 60 degree bank can be very difficult if trim is not correct. And the simple fact is flight training is where we learn the importance of these things so when we do move into higher levels of performance where correct control become more vital. Good stick and rudder and speed control and use of trim is what it's all about. I remember reading a story where a Cessna lost partial elevator control because up and down have separate cables what happened the pilot adjusted full trim in the direction that had failed and was able to control by using opposing elevator authority only. Point is a pilot needs to understand all aspects of flight control.

[bonal]

The two seat C152 is a challenge to move the CG. All the variable weight is in a narrow line about the pilot and passenger with the fuel overhead....

I learned to use trim in it. I saw a great demonstration of trimming in steep turns by the master CFI in my last lesson. Hands-off trimmed steep turns! He new exactly where to set the trim, no bracketing required.

We have a local V intersection named in his honor.

Best regards,

-a-

Establish 60 degrees bank 2 full pulls of nose up on the wheel and hands free steep turns with no change in altitude or speed. I was having a hard time maintaining altitude until my instructor showd me this trick.

[ryoder]

In my trainer 172 it was throw in a single spin of nose up while passing through thirty and add maybe 100 rpm of power. He could get it to go 45 hands off but for me I still needed a bit of pressure. I remember passing over my wake and thinking how cool that was.

[Danb]

And we wonder what there are stall spin accidents, the student has his hands full trying to control an out of trim plane as Bonal said you should learn all your stick and rudder controls early on to move on.

[Alan Fox]

Trim is your secondary system to the elevators , If you are on an approach and your elevator cable or linkage breaks if trimmed correctly it will not pitch up and stall or pitch down and make a smoking hole......And yes elevator control systems fail , There is a big AD in cable inspections on the PA28 pipers and I personally know of two failures... One resulted in an aborted takeoff and running off of the runway , the other resulted in a trim/power approach to a very long runway with a safe touchdown.....  Beech also has a service bulletin on the elevator cable on models with a single control column....

[PTK]

I haven't been away from my C150 for too long and I can say the whole point of flight training is to learn all the aspects of flight control proper use of and understanding of the functionality of trim being as important as any other when it comes to flight control. A C150 if improperly trimmed can be very heavy on the controlles. Maintaining correct pitch in low speed 30 and 60 degree bank can be very difficult if trim is not correct. And the simple fact is flight training is where we learn the importance of these things so when we do move into higher levels of performance where correct control become more vital. Good stick and rudder and speed control and use of trim is what it's all about. I remember reading a story where a Cessna lost partial elevator control because up and down have separate cables what happened the pilot adjusted full trim in the direction that had failed and was able to control by using opposing elevator authority only. Point is a pilot needs to understand all aspects of flight control.

This is wisdom!

I can't imagine not teaching use of trim early on.

I grew up in a PA28-180 and as I remember way back in my private days, my instructor started teaching me proper use of trim exactly at lesson number 2!

[N201MKTurbo]

You can fly a C150 all day long without touching the trim. I remember wondering "what is the point of this thing? It hardly does anything"

Maybe all private students should be taught touch and go's in a Mooney where you live or die by the trim wheel.

[N33GG]

PP training in any aircraft should include all aircraft flight control systems, power management, navigation, communication, airports, winds aloft, cross country, and on and on. As already stated, some aircraft are more demanding of trim than others, but you can expose the student to trim in any aircraft. BTW, there are aircraft much more demanding when it come to trim than a Mooney. But it wouldn't make sense to do PP training in a Mooney, much less an Mu-2 or other complex aircraft.

With all that is included in a complete PP training program, we are exposed to a lot of information, systems, and concepts. The fact is few PP students master much of anything, in spite of what they might think. The goal is to produce a safe and competent pilot that can continue learning and master these things as they gain more experience.

Some students can be a bit inaccurate when conveying what they have, or should have learned. I once flew with a PP student near the end of the program on a cross country flight. I asked when were they going to adjust the mixture. The student asked what I was talking about, so I pointed at the mixture and said that control. The student said the instructor told them to never touch that knob.

Fact was, I knew that instructor, and I knew better. This student was scared of killing the engine in flight.

When I hear something that doesn't quite sound right about what an instructor said, I first get out a grain of salt, just in case...

[TWinter]

I was just getting back in the saddle after 20 yrs of not flying. I bought a Cherokee 140 and my instructor flew enough to get me current. I picked it all back up fairly quickly, but was really struggling with landing pitch configuration. The key thing the instructor was forgetting to remind me was to trim for hands off on approach at approach speeds. As we would land I would "muscle" the yoke to keep in landing configuration without trimming correctly. The instructor did not pick up on the fact I was literally pulling the heck out of the yoke to keep the nose up and flare on approach. My thought was, well it's been a while and I'm just out of practice..I was trimming, but not near enough and not even close to hands off approach. If I had slacked off the pull back pressure the plane would have just pulled nose over. My instructor never picked up on the amount of effort I was using keeping the front up. I had a few good and a few not so good landings, but all in all looked like I had a handle on it even though I was working my butt off to get the landings nailed.

 

We did my currency to get me back in the air, but it was not until I was on my own in the Cherokee and lots of reading figuring there had to be something I was missing. After many video reviews and more book research trying to figure out what I was doing wrong and why landings were so tough. It was not until going back to basics and finding the key paragraph, " Upon landing, set your aircraft trim for hands off flying at published approach speed ".  The missing link. In defense of the instructor he just did not realize how much pressure I was having to use to keep it in landing configuration. His hand rarely touched the yoke and did not realize how out of trim we were on approach. I'm guessing it's harder to instruct someone who is a low hour pilot and took a 20 yr layoff vs. a freshly minted pilot and starting from scratch. Trim is important, you can fly out of trim, but the more complex the plane the more likely you will get into trouble sooner or later.

 

Just glad it was all smoothed out well before getting the Mooney. Would have been a much tougher learning curve at Mooney speeds..and probably ended up being expensive with a prop strike or worse. Glad I started with a forgiving Cherokee and learned my mistakes way back then.

 

Several hundred hours in the Mooney so far and all is good..knock on wood

[DXB]

Not an isolated training philosophy.  The CFII with whom I finished my PPL in December also was very anti-trim.   "You're weak- you just need to pump some iron like me and you won't need it!"    The guy had other serious interpersonal problems - should have changed early on, but I didn't know any better and thought the training was good overall, so I would be patient.  By the time I got really fed up, I was almost done and so I toughed it out.  By the end, I wished I HAD pumped some iron so I could have punched him in the face on the way out the door after my checkride.  

 

Vent over...anyway,so I'm not so experienced at using trim.  When my transition instructor for the M20C (who is a class act in comparison) tells me to "trim for 90 on downwind"  I'm not entirely sure how to do it. I probably should tell him that.  Any other tips are appreciated... 

[PTK]

...The fact is few PP students master much of anything, in spite of what they might think. The goal is to produce a safe and competent pilot that can continue learning and master these things as they gain more experience...

Totally agree. In fact, I would go a step further. I think instrument training should not be an option. It should be a requirement. Upon completion of the basic ppl curriculum the candidate should be required to initiate and complete instrument training.

This was one thing that seemed backwards to me during my training. Why aren't we teaching instruments earlier. We talk about flying by the numbers since day one yet the training that's required to refine those skills we leave as an option!

[Hank]

 

When my transition instructor for the M20C (who is a class act in comparison) tells me to "trim for 90 on downwind"  I'm not entirely sure how to do it. I probably should tell him that.  Any other tips are appreciated...

This means reduce power, hold altitude level at TPA, and turn the trim wheel for UP (it's beside the seat, grasp it fingers down with your right hand and rotate your wrist so that your fingers move up). As you turn the wheel, you will need less muscle on the yoke. Keep turning until the yoke forces are gone. Test by opening the fingers on the yoke. You are trimmed for 90 mph when the airspeed is 90, trim is set and you can let go of the yoke without climbing or descending.

You will need to play with the trim wheel at first, adding more UP or putting in some DOWN when you go too far. Every power change requires re trimming. Every attitude change requires re trimming. Do it lots, and you will get better.

[John Pleisse]

It's easy for students to develop the bad habit of flying the plane with the trim wheel, so I see the point. Or worse, trim too far up for pattern work, setting up potential problems. However, in an engine out or BG scenario, you gotta know it. The amount of trim required to relieve control pressure on a C152 is about a quarter turn. I recall trim not even necessary with full flaps on a C152. I did recall trimming for slow flight.

[201er]

Also I think for early training it is actually good for the student to fly without trim to learn how it feels and control. Trimming for pitch for a very early student may be confusing why the stick pressure is zero at every phase of flight. But once familiar, trim is an important lesson and should not be skipped. It could be life or death in a performance plane.

[201er]

Totally agree. In fact, I would go a step further. I think instrument training should not be an option. It should be a requirement. Upon completion of the basic ppl curriculum the candidate should be required to initiate and complete instrument training.

This was one thing that seemed backwards to me during my training. Why aren't we teaching instruments earlier. We talk about flying by the numbers since day one yet the training that's required to refine those skills we leave as an option!

Because not everyone goes on to fly complex/xcountry or commercially. Some people are perfectly fine just staying local, in the pattern, or have flexibility to fly on perfect days. Adding cost and unnecessary training is ludicrous. The VFR into IMC rate is relatively small. Over 60 percent of accidents are maneuvering, takeoff, or landing related. These are basic flight skills and nothing to do with instruments. Possibly caused by too much distraction with instruments. If anything, pilots should be required to have more stall training than instruments.

[Mooneymite]

I'm not a good instructor and I have done very little primary instruction, so mine is probably not good technique, but back when I did teach primary, during various maneuversI would continually ask the student to let go of the controls to make the student aware of what the aircraft was trimmed to do.

 

It didn't take long before the student was trimming as a matter of habit.

 

The downside of this technique is that some students would want to "fly" with the trim tab.

 

I don't like the C-150 and did very little instruction in it, so I would have to defer to those do instruct in this aircraft for "best technique".

 

It's interesting to hear that some folk discourage trimming the 150.

[ryoder]

The private requires three hours of hood work. That is a ton of time when you consider most of it is doing turns, climbs, climbing turns, and recovery from unusual attitudes, not straight and level safety pilot time building stuff.

[PTK]

...Adding cost and unnecessary training is ludicrous....

I respectfully disagree. I don't view instrument training as unnecessary for any pilot.

Unnecessary for some may be other things like type ratings and such that they may not need.

[201er]

I don't view instrument training as unnecessary for any pilot.

Sure it can be

[DXB]

This means reduce power, hold altitude level at TPA, and turn the trim wheel for UP (it's beside the seat, grasp it fingers down with your right hand and rotate your wrist so that your fingers move up). As you turn the wheel, you will need less muscle on the yoke. Keep turning until the yoke forces are gone. Test by opening the fingers on the yoke. You are trimmed for 90 mph when the airspeed is 90, trim is set and you can let go of the yoke without climbing or descending.

You will need to play with the trim wheel at first, adding more UP or putting in some DOWN when you go too far. Every power change requires re trimming. Every attitude change requires re trimming. Do it lots, and you will get better.

Yeah I guess by the time I really get pitch and power stabilized to hold 90 at TPA, no time left to trim off control pressure- it's on to the next configuration to descend and add flaps.  Is there any point in messing with trim wheel until I get pitch and power stable?  Also I've also as yet to have a final that I can get it set up to fly hands free-  I always use significant back pressure as the nose comes down with flaps, and I am hesitant to trim it off.  This is the opposite the Warrior I  trained in.   I may be subconsciously nervous that the nose will come up too hard on a go around- is this unfounded, and I should pull the trim wheel way back?    

[Hank]

Trim away! With trim set on final, it makes the flare much easier.

If you want to have time to set up properly on downwind, slow down a mile or two sooner. When I was transitioning, my goal was to be at TPA 3 miles from the field, so I could work on slowing down. It doesn't hurt to reduce the throttle and trim, see where you are; reduce some more, trim, see where you are. With time and practice, you'll get it.

For go around, push everything forward, stiff arm the yoke, verify that you are climbing with the VSI, gear up, trim a little down, flaps to Takeoff, trim a little down, clear of obstacles, flaps Up, trim a little so you can stop the stiff arm. Cross check VSI and airspeed, a stall here will ruin your day.

This works well for me and my C, but I'm not a CFI. Suggest talking through this with your wonderful new Mooney CFI, he may have additional insight. I have flown exactly two Mooneys, mine for almost 600 hours, and a friend's F for about 10-12 hours.

[Hank]

Dev--

Are you trimming for climb when you take off? It's a long climb to 7500 msl without nose up trim. That's my happy spot for medium XC flying, an hour or so in length. Longer trips are higher. Maybe because I like to clear the hills in WV. Trim to maintain desired airspeed in the climb.

Level off at desired cruising altitude, trim to hold it, let the plane accelerate, set power and re trim to hold altitude.

The trim wheel is your friend, learn to use it often.

Time to descend, I push for 500 fpm and trim the force away. Adjust throttle and mixture to hold cruise settings for Manifold Pressure and EGT. Level off, trim to hold, reset / reduce power, re trim.

Enter pattern, drop Takeoff flaps, re trim on downwind. Drop gear, adjust trim for descent. Adjust throttle and flaps as required to maintain the descent rate and sight picture you want, and adjust trim to hold it.

Adjust Pitch for speed, power for altitude. Re trim after each adjustment. After a while, it will get easier.

Enjoy flying your Mooney! The freedom is wonderful, and you will quickly get spoiled by the fast, almost effortless transportation. I find most of the work is in the preflight planning and weather watching. The actual flying is easy, although my arms do get tired sometimes with all of that flapping!