IFR question

[Awqward]

But I take your point about no clearance in uncontrolled airspace...by definition...and given the choice I personally would rather be in controlled airspace when IMC....it's just that Europe doesn't really cater too well for us little guys...Enroute controlled airspace in the UK typically starts at 12-15,000'

[HRM]

Because that would not reflect the clearance. 

 

Skyvector doesn't recognize Victor airways. That's a limitation in SkyVector. The discrepancy you see is as simple as that. And making the Victor airway into a series of point-to-points, even with bends only, is not always as simple as adding one more fix.  Consider my flight last week. One possible route clearance involved following V3 from FLO to SSI. The clearance for that segment would simply be FLO V3 SSI. Check out the same route on Skyvector. Follow that same airway further north and south and you'll find even more bends in both directions

 

You might prefer to copy a clearance that has a 6-fix segment (or 8 or 12) instead of 2 (plus the airway name). But a lot of us wouldn't. Fortunately EFBs such as ForeFlight do understand airways, although the Garmin GNS x30 series does not (the newer GTN does), so you;re still going to have to look at your charts.

 

 

Great, thanks--now making sense. SkyVector would need to "understand" the airways and it doesn't, but ForeFlight does. ATC, of course, does not care as they would just give you the most efficient path for them (and everyone else in the airspace) and when they say VXXX it just means stay on VXXX until the next point in the plan, regardless of where it goes.

[Mooneymite]

Enroute controlled airspace in the UK typically starts at 12-15,000'

 

Interesting.

 

I thought your airspace was more controlled than ours.

[Awqward]

In the sense that most enroute controlled airspace in the UK is Class A I suppose it is....I think I would prefer the U.S. model of Class E but the Atc system just couldn't handle that volume of airspace...as a result on a typical flight from Scotland I would be in G about half the time....but still getting good radar service (on a workload permitting basis) so it's not that bad...

France on the other hand is a lot more like the US with underlying class E....but even they surround Paris with class A...

[Marauder]

Funny you should ask. I decided it was a bad habit to have a perfectly good radio doing nothing. So, one of my goals has been to put something in Nav 2 whether it be the ILS to back up the ILS in Nav 1 (the time my HSI glideslope came in normally and froze in the on-glideslope position as I descended well below was a small prompt ), to put in en enroute VORs as a backup to the GPS, or even VORs adjacent to my route of flight for to keep up monitoring and cross-check skills. Did it on my recent longer trip and, if nothing else, it generated a lack of complacency on my part.

Great post! Prior to my upgrade to GPS, I would always set both ILS capable CDIs to the approach I was flying for either precision or VOR approaches. When I got the GPS and Aspens I let that practice stop. Most likely because I like flying the GPS approaches and my second Nav is just not a GPS.

A couple of weeks ago, I started going back to this practice. It's been interesting since my Aspen PFD will display the ILS horizontal and lateral indicators up on the AI and I can have the MFD in reversion mode tracking the NAV 2 ILS signal on a second HSI.

I will try to make a video of it sometime. Pretty cool how far this technology has advanced.

[mike_elliott]

Great post! Prior to my upgrade to GPS, I would always set both ILS capable CDIs to the approach I was flying for either precision or VOR approaches. When I got the GPS and Aspens I let that practice stop. Most likely because I like flying the GPS approaches and my second Nav is just not a GPS.

A couple of weeks ago, I started going back to this practice. It's been interesting since my Aspen PFD will display the ILS horizontal and lateral indicators up on the AI and I can have the MFD in reversion mode tracking the NAV 2 ILS signal on a second HSI.

I will try to make a video of it sometime. Pretty cool how far this technology has advanced.

Its a great practice to use both Nav's, It will verify that you activated the ILS approach on your Garmin or whatever GPS. I actually saw an Aspen go TU on an ILS, the second radio was working so it was a non issue. It wasn't as frightful as when the Garmin GPS went TU in actual in a friends plane once on me, however. The planes' systems were to centered around the GPS without the redundancy I would have liked.

[Marauder]

Its a great practice to use both Nav's, It will verify that you activated the ILS approach on your Garmin or whatever GPS. I actually saw an Aspen go TU on an ILS, the second radio was working so it was a non issue. It wasn't as frightful as when the Garmin GPS went TU in actual in a friends plane once on me, however. The planes' systems were to centered around the GPS without the redundancy I would have liked.

 

I have lost GPS signal only twice in the two years I have owned the GTN. Both times on a GPS approach and once in actual. Ironically, it was the same airport and the same approach.  Not comforting when you see this...

 

[201er]

How exactly do you "abort approach" to an airport where only GPS navigation is available?

Or do they mean you just lost raim but still have enroute capability?

[Hank]

Funny you should ask. I decided it was a bad habit to have a perfectly good radio doing nothing. So, one of my goals  has been to put something in Nav 2 whether it be the ILS to back up the ILS in Nav 1 (the time my HSI glideslope came in normally and froze in the on-glideslope position as I descended well below was a small prompt  ), to put in  en enroute VORs as a backup to the GPS, or even VORs adjacent to my route of flight for to keep up monitoring and cross-check skills. Did it on my recent longer trip and, if nothing else, it generated a lack of complacency on my part.

I've been doing this as long as I've been flying. First was direct with two VORs, now /G, and use Nav 2 to tune in (remaining) enroute VORs to make sure imam where I think I am. Bearing to the left, watch it slide by, bearing to the right, etc. Plus it can help identify IAF, FAF, MAP, etc. If nothing else, it gives me something to do. Often I'll tune it in, and my wife will plot it on the sectional, but lately she's just been sleeping.

[Marauder]

How exactly do you "abort approach" to an airport where only GPS navigation is available?

Or do they mean you just lost raim but still have enroute capability?

Once that message came up, the game was over for the GPS approach. I went missed and was vectored around for the ILS to the airport. You been there... Lancaster.

That message stayed on the screen even after I landed when I took the picture.

[midlifeflyer]

Its a great practice to use both Nav's, It will verify that you activated the ILS approach on your Garmin or whatever GPS. I actually saw an Aspen go TU on an ILS, the second radio was working so it was a non issue. It wasn't as frightful as when the Garmin GPS went TU in actual in a friends plane once on me, however. The planes' systems were to centered around the GPS without the redundancy I would have liked.

This is a bit less of an issue with GPS units that are set to automatically switch to VLOC but setting up NAV 2 for the ILS also allows for the technique some use off not switching NAV 1 at all.

[Awqward]

Personally, I'm glad I have two GS indicators....it gives a bit of comfort when making an ILS to minimums that both GS are agreeing...(as well as the two CDIs).... I have never flown an LPV approach, there is only one in the UK (although a lot more in France), but I guess unless you have two TSO146 units you can't have that backup / comfort indicator...unless you tune Nav2 to the ILS (if there is one)... And if you do that is there a risk that the ILS GS and the LPV GS are not coincident?

[Marauder]

Personally, I'm glad I have two GS indicators....it gives a bit of comfort when making an ILS to minimums that both GS are agreeing...(as well as the two CDIs).... I have never flown an LPV approach, there is only one in the UK (although a lot more in France), but I guess unless you have two TSO146 units you can't have that backup / comfort indicator...unless you tune Nav2 to the ILS (if there is one)... And if you do that is there a risk that the ILS GS and the LPV GS are not coincident?

I did the same on ILS approaches. Both of my Navs before the GPS could drive an ILS and both had glideslope capable CDI heads.

I am starting to use my Aspen's MFD 2nd HSI capability to do the same for both GPS and ILS approaches. The main difference is that the horizontal and vertical guidance on the Aspen PFD is displayed on the AI

While the MFD will display the horizontal on the second HSI and the vertical on the side of the HSI -- more like a conventional mechanical HSI:

[wishboneash]

Once that message came up, the game was over for the GPS approach. I went missed and was vectored around for the ILS to the airport. You been there... Lancaster.

That message stayed on the screen even after I landed when I took the picture.

 

By the way, where did you go missed? One would have to be careful about making turns (assuming you were lined up with final approach course) until reaching the designated distance/MDA otherwise you are not guaranteed terrain clearance.

[Marauder]

By the way, where did you go missed? One would have to be careful about making turns (assuming you were lined up with final approach course) until reaching the designated distance/MDA otherwise you are not guaranteed terrain clearance.

Right about here.

The missed was for a climb out at 1200 and I was just passing through 1300 when the message popped up. I was in radar coverage and was vectored back around for the ILS to the same runway. The bases were around 1100 and for 1 nanosecond the temptation was high to go lower. But my instrument instructor from 20+ years ago echoed in my headset "Only fools go for it".

[wishboneash]

Thanks. I have to had to sometimes make sure I am in the vicinity of the airport before making any turns on a missed approach. Knowing where you are is key.

[HRM]

Anybody fly the BITER STAR into KEDC?

[Jim Peace]

The biggest difference between IFR and flight following is that under IFR you are obligated to follow instructions whereas under VFR they are merely advisory. VFR flight following is basically fake, non-mandatory IFR in VMC. 

It is my understanding that if you are transiting through class B VFR and the controller asks you to maintain a certain altitude and or heading you need to do that so long as you can maintain VFR cloud clearances.  If VMC is questionable then you have to tell the controller before you deviate.

 

True or not true?  any controllers here?

[midlifeflyer]

It is my understanding that if you are transiting through class B VFR and the controller asks you to maintain a certain altitude and or heading you need to do that so long as you can maintain VFR cloud clearances.  If VMC is questionable then you have to tell the controller before you deviate.

 

True or not true?  any controllers here?

That's not a controller question. It's a pilot question.

 

True.

 

If you are VFR in Class B you must remain clear of clouds. ATC cannot give you a temporary instrument rating, 

 

At the same time, Class B is the airspace in which everyone is under positive control and you can't simply disregard altitude and heading instructions. Your "I'm going to turn now and the heck with everyone else" can very easily result in a traffic conflict, a pretty much automatic enforcement action event. So you absolutely do have to let ATC know as early as you can that you must deviate to remain clear of clouds. Perhaps obviously, the more specific you are about what actions will avoid cloud entry the better. 

 

Unless there is an aircraft in your proposed path, the answer will be "Deviation approved."

[HRM]

If you are VFR in Class B you must remain clear of clouds. ATC cannot give you a temporary instrument rating, 

 

At the same time, Class B is the airspace in which everyone is under positive control and you can't simply disregard altitude and heading instructions. 

 

That is the operative phrase. Also, in the Bravo you can be closer to clouds (VFR) than anywhere else. Essentially it's to keep the VFR pilot who cannot fly through a cloud w/o vertigo, death spiral, etc. from going into a cloud. It is not to keep separation, the controllers do not know where the clouds are 

[gsxrpilot]

All my experience has been with the DFW and Houston Bravo's. I don't believe you could get a clearance to transit through the Bravo VFR if it wasn't CAVU. I've transited both many times, but have also been denied and told to stay clear. It's just a guess, but ATC doesn't have to allow you into the Bravo unless your destination is within.

[HRM]

All my experience has been with the DFW and Houston Bravo's. I don't believe you could get a clearance to transit through the Bravo VFR if it wasn't CAVU. I've transited both many times, but have also been denied and told to stay clear. It's just a guess, but ATC doesn't have to allow you into the Bravo unless your destination is within.

 

You cannot lump the Houston and DFW Bravos together. DFW just does not want you there if they don't have to, as you pointed out. Houston is solely dependent on traffic load and I have scud-run through there a number of times. 

[gsxrpilot]

You cannot lump the Houston and DFW Bravos together. DFW just does not want you there if they don't have to, as you pointed out. Houston is solely dependent on traffic load and I have scud-run through there a number of times. 

I won't disagree with you. Most of my experience is with DFW.