Who is 8 times more likely to die in an airplane crash?

[GeorgePerry]

The good news is, probably no one reading this thread.  There’s a study almost ready for publication that looks at the safety records of pilots who participate in type club activities, forums, additional training etc. against pilots in the same type of aircraft that don’t.  It should come as no surprise that pilots who are part of type clubs and type club activities are far safer, both in overall accidents and fatalities.

 

This makes perfect sense.  One of the major pillars of well-established and highly successful aviation safety management systems (SMS) is learning through sharing and having a proactive feedback loop that allows questions to be answered before a dangerous situation is encountered.  In GA there isn’t a universal SMS that pilots can use and type clubs have stepped in to fill this gap.  Two of the leaders in this area are the American Bonanza Society and Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association. 

 

The Mooney community is a bit more fragmented.  That’s not to say Mooney pilots don’t have resources but it’s not as well organized as it might be.  We have MOA, MAPA, Mooneyflier, and of course MooneySpace.  Each one of these organizations is doing good work, but there’s no single point repository for Safety and Educational information.

 

To help in this regard I asked the MooneySpace administrator to build a place for Safety and Technique so members can post articles or links to video’s that specifically discuss Mooney safety related topics and techniques for safe flying. 

 

If you have Safety related information that you’d like to share, please down load your articles into the Safety and Technique folder and help the Mooney community share information and be safer.

[aviatoreb]

I read a report from a fellow over at COPA (the Cirrus group for those who don't know) that COPA readers were showing 4 times safer statistics than the Cirrus owners in general.  This made complete sense for me so I made an active decision to participate in my type forum.

 

Is it chicken or the egg?  What causes the improvement?  Is it the participation that gives us tools to be better - better understanding, better training (desk time thinking about all the details of operations), and better sharing of community perspective toward better aeronautical decision making?  Or is it the kind of people who spend their time going the extra mile to think about aviation all the time are the same sorts of people to make better decisions, train themselves better, etc.  Hard to say and likely a combination of both.  In any case, please count me in for a dose of better statistics.

 

Interesting you are reporting 8 times improved over general population.  George are you aware of the COPA study from a few years ago that reported 4 times?

[Hank]

Maybe it's because those dangerous, highly flammable Cirrus aircraft kill more people than GA overall? ☺ At any rate, I value the knowledge and training I get through MAPA (our official type club), AND the camaraderie and knowledge we share here.

Fly safe. Fly fast. Fly Mooney!

(No, there's not a prejudiced bone in my body . . . )

[fantom]

It would be telling to review the hard numbers and sources of how those ratios were calculated. I have no doubt that pilots active in flying groups, forums and training have fewer accidents, but an 8 to 1 ratio seems unrealistic. There may be a bit of self promotional bias involved.

[RobertGary1]

Mooney have always had a poor safety record. Its mostly attributed to the fact that we have the legs to traverse weather systems and terrain. We see more IFR and more long flights so of course more lost of control, CFIT, etc.

 

-Robert

[Mooneymite]

As long as I'm on Mooneyspace posting I'm not in my Mooney and therefore have a very limited chance of being killed flying.   

 

But when I do fly.......

[Flymu2]

My opinion (and that's all it is):

 

Those who participate in the clubs and forums are committed to aviation in a way that nonparticipants are not.

 

In plain language, you have to be into it. If you aren't, you're not going to make an effort to keep up with the latest info, to read accident reports, and to share experiences either in person or online. I probably spend 5 hours a week just reading aviation related material and looking at the forums. There's no way I'd do that if I didn't love aviation.

 

I know owners of some very expensive airplanes who do the minimum to meet currency and insurance requirements and no more. Many of them have broken rules and operated in unsafe ways and thought nothing of it. They're unapproachable and proud of it.

 

The only way GA is going to reduce the overall accident rate is if we find a way to get to those that aren't interested. I don't know how we're going to do that.

[GeorgePerry]

My opinion (and that's all it is):

 

Those who participate in the clubs and forums are committed to aviation in a way that nonparticipants are not.

 

In plain language, you have to be into it. If you aren't, you're not going to make an effort to keep up with the latest info, to read accident reports, and to share experiences either in person or online. I probably spend 5 hours a week just reading aviation related material and looking at the forums. There's no way I'd do that if I didn't love aviation.

 

I know owners of some very expensive airplanes who do the minimum to meet currency and insurance requirements and no more. Many of them have broken rules and operated in unsafe ways and thought nothing of it. They're unapproachable and proud of it.

 

The only way GA is going to reduce the overall accident rate is if we find a way to get to those that aren't interested. I don't know how we're going to do that.

 

Intervention strategies is something in work.  Expect more on that in the near future.

[Parker_Woodruff]

As a CFI/CFI-I etc I fly with a lot of pilots for the "first time".  It's discouraging how poor airmanship is the biggest problem I am seeing.  I can't teach something new without having to go back and correct a bunch of old stuff.

 

Presently I've had a rash of clients who insist upon holding the elevator control at its most nose-low position during the ground roll on takeoff until reaching about 50 knots.

 

Very few are exceeding 50 hours of flying per year...

[Ned Gravel]

I find it is good to go and practice formation flying prior to Oshkosh and the Caravan and get beat up by an instructor on station keeping and the thousand other little idiosyncrasies that we tend to develop that may be less than ideal for even routine flight.  Practicing for, and participating in, the Mooney Caravan is one small effort at maintaining a level of proficiency and awareness I might not otherwise have.

[carusoam]

It takes a special skill to help a student focus on what he needs to do better without making him feel awkward.

It also takes special skills to get somebody to visit a site like MS and fit in enough to understand what needs to be known.

I would assume no two students are alike, especially if they span the age range and backgrounds that we have at MS.

I invited a gentleman from my home drome to visit MS. He was considering updating to a Screamin' Eagle. He was not a fan of Internet social media.

You guys have your work cut out for you...

I've always been a student. My teaching skills have never been developed....

Best regards,

-a-

[DanM20C]

As a CFI/CFI-I etc I fly with a lot of pilots for the "first time".  It's discouraging how poor airmanship is the biggest problem I am seeing.  I can't teach something new without having to go back and correct a bunch of old stuff.

 

Presently I've had a rash of clients who insist upon holding the elevator control at its most nose-low position during the ground roll on takeoff until reaching about 50 knots.

 

Very few are exceeding 50 hours of flying per year...

I'm frustrated with the poor airmanship too. specifcaly the aproach and landing phases. I'm a CFI part time and mainly do recurrent and transition training, mostly for guys with some time under there belt. I can't belive how sloppy many of them fly their patterns and approaches. I had a 2000hr bonanza pilot hire me to teach him how to use his new aspen and gtn 750. I spent most of the flight treating him like he was a primary student. He was mad at me, but he wouldn't be able to pass a private check ride.

[Hank]

Mooney have always had a poor safety record. Its mostly attributed to the fact that we have the legs to traverse weather systems and terrain. We see more IFR and more long flights so of course more lost of control, CFIT, etc.

 

-Robert

Directly opposite to official reports I've read. Mooneys are slightly safer during Day VFR, safer during Day IFR, and hugely safer during Night Flight. Suggest you read some official reports by AOPA & NTSB. No GA aircraft will ever match the airlines, just as no drivers match professional drivers' safety record, where truckers advertise their Milliom Mile accident free records.

[DanM20C]

It takes a special skill to help a student focus on what he needs to do better without making him feel awkward.

-a-

So true. This is a skill I need to work on.

[Flymu2]

I spent most of the flight treating him like he was a primary student. He was mad at me, but he wouldn't be able to pass a private check ride.

I was friendly once with a Bonanza owner who was an awful pilot. I finally confronted him. He wouldn't speak to me again until he lost control on landing and ran through a fence. He blamed the FAA for wanting him to take a 709 ride as his reason to quit flying. Hard to get to a guy like that.

[Marauder]

I was friendly once with a Bonanza owner who was an awful pilot. I finally confronted him. He wouldn't speak to me again until he lost control on landing and ran through a fence. He blamed the FAA for wanting him to take a 709 ride as his reason to quit flying. Hard to get to a guy like that.

There are a number of knuckleheads like that out there. A guy at my airport with a couple of hundred hours told me he was putting a smoke system in his RV. I asked why and he told me he does some acrobatic stuff.

When I asked him who taught him he said he "self learned". I told him he was nuts and asked him to give me his attractive wife's cell number so I could call her after his funeral.

[BigTex]

Well, it's been quite a day on MS.  We're slamming a Mooney legend and CFI's complaining about how crappy their students fly.

 

I sure hope that none of your students hang out on this message board because I suspect they'd take offense being laughed at, belittled and made fun of.  These "knuckle heads" know that their skills are not where they need to be.  Maybe that's the reason they're using your services in the first place?  They all want to suck less.

 

Being one of those sorry, 50 hours/year pilots that's taking lessons to improve my crappy airmanship would not want my instructor poking fun at my piloting skills behind my back or on some forum.  What goes on in that cockpit between the student and instructor needs to stay between the two of you.  If you as a CFI/CFII have that level of contempt and disrespect for your students please to all of us crappy pilots out there do us a big favor and not do anymore instructing.  Us sub-par pilots need to be able to trust our CFII's that they're not going to be some bar joke because we can't fly to the PTS.

[DonMuncy]

I fly with Parker, and I know when he talks about pilot's deficiencies, he is not talking about me. Certainly, his other students would think the same.

[Marauder]

Well, it's been quite a day on MS. We're slamming a Mooney legend and CFI's complaining about how crappy their students fly.

I sure hope that none of your students hang out on this message board because I suspect they'd take offense being laughed at, belittled and made fun of. These "knuckle heads" know that their skills are not where they need to be. Maybe that's the reason they're using your services in the first place? They all want to suck less.

Being one of those sorry, 50 hours/year pilots that's taking lessons to improve my crappy airmanship would not want my instructor poking fun at my piloting skills behind my back or on some forum. What goes on in that cockpit between the student and instructor needs to stay between the two of you. If you as a CFI/CFII have that level of contempt and disrespect for your students please to all of us crappy pilots out there do us a big favor and not do anymore instructing. Us sub-par pilots need to be able to trust our CFII's that they're not going to be some bar joke because we can't fly to the PTS.

I'm not sure which post you were referring to, but as one of the knuckleheads and not a CFI I have seen my fair share of knuckleheads in the 30 years I have been flying.

In my early flying days, I thought some of the knucklehead activity I saw was because I was too inexperienced and that these guys had superior knucklehead skills. After a couple of years I finally understood what the former WWII pilot then DPE meant by "Don't be a knucklehead, be careful out there" as he was handing me my temp certificate.

Nothing can stop a true accident caused by a failure that was not possible to predict, but pilot induced knucklehead activity can. But not for these knuckleheads:

- I watched one knucklehead who built himself an experimental crash right after takeoff. For the prior 30 minutes before take-off I watched him struggle to keep the VW engine run for more than a couple of minutes. Once it ran for 5 minutes, he launched right into knucklehead folklore. He survived.

- A knucklehead in New York where I was based was frustrated that our airport didn't have an approach (a VOR approach was being implemented) so he built his own using a local AM radio station. As he was flying his homemade NDB approach one low cloud misty day, I watched him descend out of the cloud about 200 feet off of the centerline and below the height of the powerlines that paralleled the road next to the runway. Fortunately, after that event he turned in his knucklehead membership card.

- An experienced Skybolt knucklehead pilot, decided to go do some acrobatics north of the airport. He shows up an hour later in a police car. Seems that taking off with 15 minutes of fuel became a problem at 16 minutes. His arrogance was what irritated me. He was bragging how this now would allow him to buy that Pitts he always wanted.

These were the lucky knuckleheads... Unfortunately some over the years didn't make it. If I see an unsafe pilot I have no qualms about making a comment to them. What we have chosen as our passion shouldn't end, because we a knucklehead doing it.

[Oscar Avalle]

I'm not sure which post you were referring to, but as one of the knuckleheads and not a CFI I have seen my fair share of knuckleheads in the 30 years I have been flying.

In my early flying days, I thought some of the knucklehead activity I saw was because I was too inexperienced and that these guys had superior knucklehead skills. After a couple of years I finally understood what the former WWII pilot then DPE meant by "Don't be a knucklehead, be careful out there" as he was handing me my temp certificate.

Nothing can stop a true accident caused by a failure that was not possible to predict, but pilot induced knucklehead activity can. But not for these knuckleheads:

- I watched one knucklehead who built himself an experimental crash right after takeoff. For the prior 30 minutes before take-off I watched him struggle to keep the VW engine run for more than a couple of minutes. Once it ran for 5 minutes, he launched right into knucklehead folklore. He survived.

- A knucklehead in New York where I was based was frustrated that our airport didn't have an approach (a VOR approach was being implemented) so he built his own using a local AM radio station. As he was flying his homemade NDB approach one low cloud misty day, I watched him descend out of the cloud about 200 feet off of the centerline and below the height of the powerlines that paralleled the road next to the runway. Fortunately, after that event he turned in his knucklehead membership card.

- An experienced Skybolt knucklehead pilot, decided to go do some acrobatics north of the airport. He shows up an hour later in a police car. Seems that taking off with 15 minutes of fuel became a problem at 16 minutes. His arrogance was what irritated me. He was bragging how this now would allow him to buy that Pitts he always wanted.

These were the lucky knuckleheads... Unfortunately some over the years didn't make it. If I see an unsafe pilot I have no qualms about making a comment to them. What we have chosen as our passion shouldn't end, because we a knucklehead doing it.

The problem is that those knucleheads are the ones that give GA a bad name and arguments to those who want to restrict our flying as much as possible.

[ryoder]

This book is a pretty good read although it does poke a lot of fun at bad aeronautical decision making.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Pilots-Flight-Manual-Airplanes-ebook/dp/B008L8RAXI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1422012236&sr=1-1&keywords=thinking+pilots

[Parker_Woodruff]

Well, it's been quite a day on MS. We're slamming a Mooney legend and CFI's complaining about how crappy their students fly.

I sure hope that none of your students hang out on this message board because I suspect they'd take offense being laughed at, belittled and made fun of. These "knuckle heads" know that their skills are not where they need to be. Maybe that's the reason they're using your services in the first place? They all want to suck less.

Being one of those sorry, 50 hours/year pilots that's taking lessons to improve my crappy airmanship would not want my instructor poking fun at my piloting skills behind my back or on some forum. What goes on in that cockpit between the student and instructor needs to stay between the two of you. If you as a CFI/CFII have that level of contempt and disrespect for your students please to all of us crappy pilots out there do us a big favor and not do anymore instructing. Us sub-par pilots need to be able to trust our CFII's that they're not going to be some bar joke because we can't fly to the PTS.

BigTex,

My post should have been a little more direct - my primary complaint is this:

Poor airmanship is beginning at the CFI as the root. I stood on the nosewheel of a c172 last month. No CFI had ever told him, in 250 hours of flying a C172, not to do that.

And my primary complaint about the lack of flying in airplanes isn't so much the VFR pilot or IFR pilot trying to "suck less". It's the flight review where I ask for a second day, but they want the sign off TODAY. This person didn't fail a flight review, but skills needed polishing to meet PTS.

As an aside, it's also the situations I'm put in with airplanes with cobwebs that the owners refuse to spend a dime of money on MX because they fly so little. Part of the reason I have largely quit doing the airplane deliveries. I've yet to be stuck somewhere somewhere across this country with a Maxwell maintained airplane.

In my first post, which didn't make it because Southwest Airlines was closing the door out in Midland, I made a comparison about the Colgan crash and how it didn't matter who you were, no one was exempt from lowering the nose in a stall. (And those guys fly a lot more than 50 hrs per year).

My apologies for the brevity of the first post

[Parker_Woodruff]

I sure hope that none of your students hang out on this message board because I suspect they'd take offense being laughed at, belittled and made fun of. These "knuckle heads" know that their skills are not where they need to be. Maybe that's the reason they're using your services in the first place? They all want to suck less.

Us sub-par pilots need to be able to trust our CFII's that they're not going to be some bar joke because we can't fly to the PTS.

While I admit my initial post doesn't create a comfortable learning environment, and should have been more tactfully stated, this discussion is largely the result of some extremely bad situations I have found myself in over the past couple years. Many members here can attest to my experiences. I can assure you that no one with a good attitude towards learning should worry about the above. Why? Because the problem is fixed quickly because they are *open to learning correct techniques*.

It's not the attitude of learning you've described above. It's the attitude that when I have stepped in an aircraft I don't know why I'm there because the client has decided to act in their own ways.

I've been on the bad side of the PTS before (failed checkride). It happens. Even to the good students. Hopefully I can help weed out bad habits to those who are willing to learn.

Hopefully owners who keep up with forums and message boards will act in accordance with the study findings and do the items discussed that will make them safer.

I know that I would be much worse off if I didn't have Avweb, MooneySpace, and (formerly when I participated) the AOPA forum.

[DanM20C]

Well, it's been quite a day on MS.  We're slamming a Mooney legend and CFI's complaining about how crappy their students fly.

 

I sure hope that none of your students hang out on this message board because I suspect they'd take offense being laughed at, belittled and made fun of.  These "knuckle heads" know that their skills are not where they need to be.  Maybe that's the reason they're using your services in the first place?  They all want to suck less.

 

Being one of those sorry, 50 hours/year pilots that's taking lessons to improve my crappy airmanship would not want my instructor poking fun at my piloting skills behind my back or on some forum.  What goes on in that cockpit between the student and instructor needs to stay between the two of you.  If you as a CFI/CFII have that level of contempt and disrespect for your students please to all of us crappy pilots out there do us a big favor and not do anymore instructing.  Us sub-par pilots need to be able to trust our CFII's that they're not going to be some bar joke because we can't fly to the PTS.

Big Tex,

 

You are absolutely right, this isn't the place to for me to rant and was very unprofessional of me.  I also should have been more clear. Most of the pilots I fly with are not taking lessons to improve their flying, they are trying to fulfill a requirement.  Either a flight review or insurance requirements.  Most of them are receptive to trying to fix bad habits and don't get upset if I want to work with them a little longer during a flight review.  But several just want my signature in their log book.  Parker summed it up perfectly.

 

It's not the attitude of learning you've described above. It's the attitude that when I have stepped in an aircraft I don't know why I'm there because the client has decided to act in their own ways.

 

 

 

[BigTex]

Parker and Dan - Thanks for you're comments and appreciate your perspective.  My hat's off to you guys and really appreciate your hard work you do for the aviation community.  There's no way I could ever do that job.  My main point is that CFI's like doctors and lawyers and other professionals have a responsibility to maintain trust with their patient, client or student that their condition, situation or ability stays between the two of you.

 

My apologies if my comments came across as totally directed to what's in this thread.  It just struck a nerve and was more directed at those CFI's out there that would rather be anywhere but up in a plane instructing.  They don't like instructing and the only reason they're doing it is to build time.  We've all seen those types of instructors.  I had a bad experience with one when I started back into flying after a 20 year layoff.  It was pretty clear that he had thinly disguised contempt (TDC) for me as a student and from my perspective had no business instructing.

 

I do find it sad that the bulk of what you guys do is not to improve but to meet regulation commitments.  In that sense, I can see how it can get pretty frustrating.