More Mooney Buying questions

[StinkBug]

Just came back from the MSC doing the prebuy on a plane I was looking at buying and.....well......I'm not buying it. Sure hurts to spend all that money on an inspection and walk away from it, but I found out all the important things that make that money well spent. Now that I'm back to searching however this brings some new questions to mind. The particular plane I had been looking at was local, and at the same airport as a Mooney Service Center, which was awfully convenient. Pretty much every other plane I've found is nowhere nearby. How do you go about choosing a place to do an inspection when the plane is several states away, at an airport you've never been to? Also, lets say you were interested in one of the Mooneys at All American, who seem to have a superb reputation here. How would that effect your inspection criteria? There are a couple planes there right now that fit my budget and needs, and have had annuals and/or maintenance done by Don Maxwell, who also seems to have a superb reputation. Would you still wanna send it to a 3rd party to inspect, or would you feel ok simply giving Don a call and discussing the aircraft with him. I guess what I'm getting at is should buying from a highly respected place buy you a bit more security in a planes condition, or do you always have to assume it needs to be sent to someone to lift the skirt and peek around? and if so, how do you arrange that peek?

 

To be clear I don't mind spending the money on another prebuy, it was certainly money well spent, though disappointing. I'm just curious if sellers like All American generally inspect the planes before they even take them in, and stand behind them so to speak, or if all planes should be treated as "guilty until proven innocent"

[DonMuncy]

I bought my plane from All American and have come to claim Jimmy and David as friends. You can take what they say to the bank. But they are not A&Ps nor IAs. I would get a prebuy from a good source. Don Maxwell has a good reputation and would not intentionally mislead you. But a second (new) set of eyes is probably safer. Dugosh is close to All American, and they know their stuff.

[N252WD]

I have bought 2 planes from Jimmy and David at All American. They are great to work with. I had my Pre-Buy at my airport, with my guy, they flew the plane to him to do it. They will work with you every way they can.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Jimmy and David broker planes and are honest with the planes as far as they know them and study their logbooks.

There are planes that they have sold which have had extensive maintenance done during the prepurchase process. There are planes they have sold which are more or less flawless.

Your best bet to protect yourself is have an agreement that allows both parties to walk, but if the seller walks because he disagrees with the prebuy, he's on the hook for the inspection.

Previous annuals by Maxwell or other good MSCs are a good indication of the overall maintenance of the plane, but are not a substitute for an inspection paid for by you. There's nothing that says something bad didn't happen from the time Maxwell & company put the cowl on and the seller flew away. Hard landings, something about to eat itself, etc.

[kmyfm20s]

I have bought and sold with All American, I had no problems with the plane and really enjoyed working with Jimmy and David. I would definitely recommend having a pre buy from someone other than who has been doing an annuals. If they over look a problem in the annual they will in the prebuy. I had this issue with my last plane I just purchased (which wasn't with AAA), 2 CSB's that where not mentioned on the PPI by a very reputable MSC and discovered latter by my MSC. I will be down at KMYF this friday if you feel like discussing plane purchasing and my PPI experience.

[StinkBug]

I have bought 2 planes from Jimmy and David at All American. They are great to work with. I had my Pre-Buy at my airport, with my guy, they flew the plane to him to do it. They will work with you every way they can.

 

I'd love to have the pre-buy done by the same place I was at today, but somehow I dont see the logistics of transporting a plane from TX to CA for a PPI working out very easily. If they did that, I'd be way beyond impressed.

[FlyDave]

I traded my J for a Bravo last December with Jimmy and used Don Maxwell for the prebuy. I posted the experience in the Bravo forum titled "Turbocharge Me".

I had a great experience working with them and would absolutely go to them again. You might not be able to shave the price down as much as with a private seller but you know the reputation of the person you're dealing with before you get started. Heck, I paid for my airplane before I every heard the engine run or flew it. That was a lot of trust placed in Don Maxwell and Jimmy Garrison! They're both no BS kind of guys.

[N252WD]

I'd love to have the pre-buy done by the same place I was at today, but somehow I dont see the logistics of transporting a plane from TX to CA for a PPI working out very easily. If they did that, I'd be way beyond impressed.

I dont think they would go that far, I was only an hour away in the 252. All American is very close to Kerrville, you can get a good PPI in the area. Most of them even know Jimmy and David and are willing to work with them.

[rainman]

Having maintenance done at an MSC is not the same as having them do a PPI. It's worth the money and time. You'll want to look at the plane in person and fly it also. I'm co-located with AAA, let me know (PM me) if I can be of any help.

[N601RX]

What kind of problems did you find with the prebuy?  It sounds like you were involved with the prebuy.  There is a lot of screening that can be done before taking a plane in for a prebuy if you know where to look. This includes physical inspection, log review, FAA cd review, check all 337's and STC's, accident database, flight test including checking all equipment out. Also talk with previous mechanic.  They may tell you known problems or things that have been deferred.  You can also ask them to start with the most common areas of problems and stop the prebuy and call you as soon as any serious problem is found.

[gsxrpilot]

+1 for Jimmy and David at All American

+2 for Don Maxwell's PPI

[carusoam]

It is as complex as buying a house that is far away, without the regulation that helps protect the buyer....

what makes sense to you...?

I could only afford to travel to see a plane once to see it and then come back and buy it.

If it failed, I just threw away my personal vacation money for a year...?

When you are buying from a known source, they can help you with understanding the probability of a plane being able to pass an MSC PPI.

Working with Jimmy and David, you can do that.

Before first visit...

Starts with many pictures, long technical description, and every logbook page copied...

If financing, get the qualification work going...

On first visit...

Earnest money. Allows the buyer first right to buy the plane. Keep others away to complete the purchase.

Build Purchasing Agreement. Write down the buyer's expectations. AW items and Nav equipment.

After first visit...

Finance arrangements. Pink paper registration?

PPI @MSC. Fix AW and other things in the PA.

Down payment.

Transition training.

Fly home (your home) in IMC with transition trainer.

I used AAA to help organize each of these steps. Each step cost money. The more expensive the plane, the more important this becomes....

Not covering these steps can be even more expensive.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Consider yourself lucky that you found mooney space before you make your purchase there are so many examples here for what to do and more importantly what not. The problem is not ending up spending a ton of money on multiple PPi's so picking a good candidate is important. Since doing very involved owner assisted annuals and after all the things I have learned on MS and the many other sources I could now do a pretty thorough PPI myself. Don't be shy get the selling party to open up the airplane. My biggest concern would be corrosion and find someone that understands log books and really spend time looking at the history and when you find one that really looks good then make the investment on your PPI. Lake Aero Styling has a good pre buy document you can use to help with your personal inspection.

As always good luck and don't forget this is supposed to be fun!

[fantom]

There are planes they have sold which are more or less flawless.

Your best bet to protect yourself is have an agreement that allows both parties to walk, but if the seller walks because he disagrees with the prebuy, he's on the hook for the inspection.

 

 

We know one plane like that, Parker

 

I know you're a very good negotiator, but getting either a seller, or a shop, to agree to that, without a number clearly

worded caveats would be very tough.

[Jeff_S]

StinkBug (what a handle!), I can't tell from your post if you are first-time buyer or not. I'm guessing you are, as your questions seem like you're new to the process. And if you felt strongly enough to walk away from a plane during pre-buy then you seem to be pretty savvy to begin with. Many folks try as hard as they can to justify a purchase once they get that far.

 

Here is what I would consider when doing a pre-buy far from home, and without knowing any familiar shops or A/Ps in an area. First, get a recommendation from a couple of different sources.  If two or three people all say the same thing about a shop/mechanic, that's probably a good indication.  Second, while many on the forum may fricassee me for saying this, I don't think an MSC is absolutely required for a pre-buy. If one is convenient and the price is right, great, but I think any good competent shop/mechanic can tell you what you need to know during a pre-buy.

 

That said, there are some good pre-buy checklists on the MAPA website (if you're not a member yet, join). If you get one of these checklists and provide it to your selected shop/mechanic, then the fun begins.  A very wise Delta pilot/RV-Builder/Backcountry flier (yes, all that in one person) gave me my first counsel on a pre-buy.  There are really two things you want to check:

 

1) firewall forward

2) corrosion in the known trouble spots (wings, frame, etc.)

 

Firewall forward, a Mooney is just an airplane. It's got a Lycoming or Continental engine, and a good mechanic can tell you if things are solid in that department. Again, there are a few things on a Mooney-specific checklist that you can verify, but overall this is not rocket surgery.

 

Corrosion is something to look for, but again, access panels are access panels. For older Mooneys prior to 1986, pay careful attention to corrosion around the wing roots as there were some known issues there. But wing corrosion, battery box corrosion, etc. can all be found through a standard inspection.  Even the beloved shock discs are easily evaluated by checking for play in the gear, looking at the date on the discs themselves, etc.

 

From what I can tell, you seem involved in the process and have a sense of what's right and wrong with an airplane. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a shop/mechanic anywhere you might be looking at an airplane that can give you an honest and thorough appraisal of your prospective ride. Good luck!

[fantom]

Another possibility is flying the mechanic you trust to the sellers location, especially if a hanger and tools are available for him there.

[StinkBug]

Yes, this will be my first airplane. I cant say that I'm all that educated on airplane systems, but I build custom vehicles for a living so the mechanical things are easy for me to understand, and once something is pointed out to me I generally know what's going on. The guys doing the PPI for me called me into the shop yesterday and just started pointing at things, knowing that I have enough mechanical background to understand what's not right. I definitely don't think I know anywhere near enough to properly inspect a plane myself though, especially because I know I get a little blurry when I see something I want. 

[Cruiser]

You don't say what the issues were that made you walk on the previous plane so it is impossible to advise you on your next pre-buy.

 

Almost all pre-buys will identify air-worthiness issues, as such, anything AAA is selling probably meets that standard. If you are looking for more minor issues to "negotiate" with, you need a good MSC with a solid reputation. Central Texas is not far for a Mooney no matter where it is located   and central Texas has some of the best 

[Parker_Woodruff]

We know one plane like that, Parker

 

I know you're a very good negotiator, but getting either a seller, or a shop, to agree to that, without a number clearly

worded caveats would be very tough.

 

If they won't agree to taking their plane to LASAR, Top Gun, G-Force, or Don Maxwell, then I won't play ball.  I'll even pay the fuel and buy the seller an airline ticket home from any one of those places.

 

I want to purchase an airworthy airplane...some sellers have a strange definition of "airworthy".

[carusoam]

I'd go with Jeff's advice...

Buy the O3. The PPI won't be as involved as one on a 1965 C on it's fourth OH.

Best regards,

-a-

More less than helpful info off the top of my head....

[Ned Gravel]

 

 

To be clear I don't mind spending the money on another prebuy, it was certainly money well spent, though disappointing. .....

 

+1.  

 

I spent between $500 and $800 on five prebuys between April and November 2004 and actually looked at eight aircraft before I found a seller who would own up to their cost of rendering the aircraft airworthy.  In all cases, I walked when they balked.  The last one did not balk, assumed his responsibilities, and I bought his.  Each dollar spent on a pre-buy (using 5 different shops across the US and Canada - of which two were MSCs) all saved me at least $10 in heartache and extra cost if I had purchased that aircraft.

 

As one mechanic from Mizou Aviation put it, when he sent me the report:  "She's been rode hard and put away wet."

[StinkBug]

You don't say what the issues were that made you walk on the previous plane so it is impossible to advise you on your next pre-buy.

 

 

Not really sure how the problems of one plane mean anything to the problems of another. Lets just say the list was very long. Lots of broken bits, enough corrosion to worry, signs of poor maintenance, etc. They were only about halfway through the inspection when I showed up and the list was multiple pages long, and every time we looked at something we found another problem. Like I said, it was money well spent, because none of it was obvious when I looked and did the test flight, but once the panels started coming off it was a different story. 

 

Not sure how that would effect a prebuy on a different plane at a different shop though. I didn't have any problems with the shop, just the plane. I'm not lookin for the golden magic mooney here, just one that's airworthy and reliable.

[ahkahn]

I am actually in the process of a purchase right now.  Same situation where the pre-buy turned up a laundry list that really boiled down to lack of correct maintenance.  I actually believe in this case that the seller was oblivious to the shoddy maintenance.  It had just been annualled 20 hours (6 months) ago!  He is a hands-off owner who likes to jump in the plane and fly it.  There were even AD's that had been signed off on by the prior mechanic and obviously not performed.  The biggest issue was moderate belly corrosion due to the lack of airplane washes/dirty belly.  When the laundry list came out, the seller balked because his mechanic told him my mechanic didn't know what he was doing and was obviously being overly picky.... although the seller hadn't seen the plane opened up in many years.  I basically told the seller that he is free to come to the shop and take a look to see how bad the plane truly is, or we can both walk away and he can find the next buyer.  

 

The seller came out, looked at the plane, was shocked at how bad the innerds were and authorized any and all work to be performed.  We're looking at about a 15k annual on this plane.  But, he is stepping up and moving forward... he also took a lot of pictures and is going to have a friendly chat with his mechanic.  My fear is that after spending this type of money on a new annual and all of this maintenance that the seller will back out... he still has a lot of emotion into this plane... it's like a child to him.  He doesn't financially have to sell it.

 

Moral of the story:  Make sure you're dealing directly with the seller and being completely open and up front about the airplane...  In my situation it wasn't that he is trying to sell a lemon, it's that he is under the wrong impression of the plane. 

 

-Andrew

[Marauder]

I hear you Andrew. I trust my mechanic explicitly but he doesn't do all the work himself. I often rely on what I hear here to have areas checked that may get overlooked (like under the rear seats).

Emotional attachment to a plane is real. I think I would be equally insulted if someone told me my kid was ugly or my plane was.

[emill1@msn.com]

Stinkbug:  if you are sincerely looking for a nice Mooney, please post what kind, etc.  I am retiring soon, and will be selling mine.  It is immaculate and unique.