Aircraft Market - Wots... uh the Deal

[ArtVandelay]

My plane has radios/IFR GPS....My plane has VOR nav and an KN64....My plane has been flying over 50 years without a fuel flow monitor and just an EGT and a CHT OIL P etc.

I understand none of this including the plane is needed for most people but spending north of 20k on a GTN etc with install when a 500 dollar iPad keeps you safer with a better display is just mind boggling for a single engine airplane. These are go carts with wings, not multi engine jets crossing the ocean for hire and going to where the boogie man lives........

You can't even find most single engine flyers on here with recent flight aware activity. Just VFR strolls around town.....Do you need a GTN to fly VFR to destinations that you can see from your rooftop?

First, the GTN 650 is about 12-14k installed, not north of 20k, you don't need a 650 to fly VFR, but makes flying IFR airways nice, no more entering a bunch of VORs that make up the airway. And if only flying to destinations you can see from your rooftop you should buy an experimental, save cost of avionics and pricey maintenance.

It may be a go cart with wings but it's mine, and I am proud of it, and when I'm done, it will be exactly what I want, nothing more, nothing less, and if I win the lottery I won't be selling my plane.

[dfgreene61]

Let's face it, avionics are obscenely expensive.  But once you've flown with the GTN-750 / GDL-88 combo, there's no going back!  Now I'm getting an Aspen PFD installed at the end of the month.  This is becoming an obsession...

[wishboneash]

The next day you will not get your money back....

 

I really don't know why you need to have a GTN anything.....

 

I have an older Garmin 300XL and an STEC 30 with Altitude, KN64 DME etc.  I also have a free subscription to fltplan.com.  My M20C will take me anywhere safely.  And I rather look at the sectional or low chart as printed then that stupid GTN display.  I know in one second if I am good on airspace etc by looking at my iPad...not so with the GTNs I have flown.

 

Save the money you will spend on any glass avionics and put it into engine and fuel tank maintenance.  If the prop does not turn none of the other stuff matters........

 

Since I fly predominantly in the SF Bay area, IMC is common. Without a WAAS GPS I wouldn't be flying into Half Moon Bay and several coastal airports until late afternoon in summer. I was OK with the 430 and I got familiar with it over several months, but the GTN series is far easier to use and program and re-route. The GDL-88 has saved me from mid-airs several times because of the crazily busy airspace in the Bay area. In combination with the GTN series it is a very powerful combination. I for one am not deferring engine maintenance or neglecting the plane to put in these avionics. The price is not that high when upgrading especially if the older avionics still have good value (such as the 430).

[carusoam]

You all are in agreement with each other...

You spend obscene amounts of money on a personal flying machine.

The only thing you don't agree on is how to spend the last handful of AMUs.

Best regards,

-a-

[Av8]

Bought a '78 J closing in on 4 months ago after months of looking.  Agree - it's hard to find "everything"... also found that asking prices and what someone was willing to take varied greatly.

 

In the end, bought engine, airframe and am embarking on an interior & avionics upgrade cycle.  

 

with now closing in on 60 hours with the plane, have had brakes issues, fuses pop, and a few other minor issues - but overall got what I wanted - a plane with a "young" engine that performs to the numbers, a straight airframe at a price that makes having to put more $$ in to her tolerable.  It's a passion/hobby not an investment as many have commented.

 

Finding a plane with a modern engine analyzer, and modern avionics tough - solid AP and everything else can be replaced was the advice I got from many along the way.  

 

best of luck to all.  Hopefully with oil prices coming down we'll see al little relief on Avgas... haven't seen it yet 

[Bravoman]

Hey, the bottom line is we are all playing with expensive toys, and the last time I checked this life we are living is no practice drill. We here are blessed to be able to afford this luxury, and at the end of the day we have to accept that every dollar spent on enjoyment and having something that we love doing cannot be recouped.

IMO the quality and maintence history of the airframe and engine are the most important thing in the purchase decision. Avionics can always be changed. I am not intending to open a debate about buying planes with damage histories, but I have a personal thing about that, and it is an example of something that can't be changed.

[LANCECASPER]

you get what you pay for.....

 

 . . . . sometimes 

[manoflamancha]

True it's tough finding an older single piston aircraft with a later IFR Garmin GPS and decent autopilot. Many will be scrapped perhaps in 2020 or sold at major discount or sit rotting with the FAA ADSB mandate.

[aviatoreb]

True it's tough finding an older single piston aircraft with a later IFR Garmin GPS and decent autopilot. Many will be scrapped perhaps in 2020 or sold at major discount or sit rotting with the FAA ADSB mandate.

 

Agreed.  I am thinking that the corollary to that even older aircraft, which have continued to be updated with modern equipment and in good shape will leap forward in value as those older competing aircraft but with too out of date avionics become scrapped as 2020 comes near.  The market of used aircraft will shrink.  Supply shrinks - demand (price) goes up.

[manoflamancha]

It's sad really because I almost never meet an old airplane that I don't like. Almost sad to see them rotting when thousands of folks could be discovering the joy of flight instead of gridlock in expensive SUVs and mini vans. GA has turned into world for the uber rich 1% in the future when $20 billion of biz jets can be sold every year to 2000 super rich versus 20 years ago GA made $2 billion a year selling 20,000 single piston aircraft to 20,000 middle income American families. That and folks prefer being herded like cattle into sardine can seats. I had to fly commercial recently and the seat was half the size at least felt that way when an obese woman hogged her seat and creeped into mine compared to a Mooney seat.

[lukejb]

I guess i am very different than most on this thread. I don't really see the point in updating my panel. I am more concerned with a healthy engine and a healthy airframe. The dated avionics in my airplane are just fine for me. The ipad and geo-referenced approach plates already make it easy enough i don't know why i would need anything more. With how fast technology changes and becomes outdated i cannot imagine spending $50k to update a panel. It surprises me how many buyers are so concerned in having updated avionics packages with how how inexpensively you can do things with a tablet and subscription. Don't get me wrong if i had money stacked away i would update my panel. In my current financial situation if i had another $50k to spend i would probably continue saving until i could buy another airplane. Maybe an RV-8

[Marauder]

I guess i am very different than most on this thread. I don't really see the point in updating my panel. I am more concerned with a healthy engine and a healthy airframe. The dated avionics in my airplane are just fine for me. The ipad and geo-referenced approach plates already make it easy enough i don't know why i would need anything more. With how fast technology changes and becomes outdated i cannot imagine spending $50k to update a panel. It surprises me how many buyers are so concerned in having updated avionics packages with how how inexpensively you can do things with a tablet and subscription. Don't get me wrong if i had money stacked away i would update my panel. In my current financial situation if i had another $50k to spend i would probably continue saving until i could buy another airplane. Maybe an RV-8

I didn't either for 20+ of the years I owned my Mooney. Now that I did upgrade, I wouldn't go back. For anyone who likes precision, the difference between watching a VOR signal dance on a CDI needle versus the rock solid GPS signal is noteworthy.

For me, the upgrade was all about the approaches. Being restricted to ILS, VOR and NDB approaches (the latter two of which are decreasing in number) made the decision easier to upgrade.

My airport has only a VOR approach and is based on a VOR that makes my CDI dance like a bowl of Jello on an unbalanced washing machine. The first time I flew an LPV approach, I was hooked...

My only regret? Not doing it sooner.

[Marauder]

One other comment about the changes in aviation technology... I started flying in the 80s. The core of the navigation environment was VOR based. A technology that "was developed in the United States beginning in 1937 and deployed by 1946, VOR is the standard air navigational system in the world" And it still is here and will be until it can be decommissioned. Non-military GPS has been around since the early 90s and it will be for years.

Outside of some technologies like LORAN, I expect we will still see GPS for quite a few more years. I wouldn't be too concerned about the obsolescence.

[manoflamancha]

I think the reason why VOR will be around for another few decades besides the cost to decommission it will be as a backup nav system in case a solar flare knocks out GPS satellites.

[Jim Peace]

I think the reason why VOR will be around for another few decades besides the cost to decommission it will be as a backup nav system in case a solar flare knocks out GPS satellites.

just a matter of time......

[ArtVandelay]

You don't need to spend 50k, but an engine monitor and IFR GPS are must haves in my book

[lukejb]

Yes, i agree. I have engine monitor and soon will have IFR GPS installed but not a new IFR GPS.

[lukejb]

I just don't ever really plan to fly single (piston) engine, single pilot IFR ops down to minimums and really don't think i ever would regardless of my skill level. So really don't think it makes much sense for all of the new panel avionics packages. I know a lot of people that have same very conservative personal minimums that i do but they are wanting the fully updated panels. It just seems like overkill to me.

[ArtVandelay]

I just don't ever really plan to fly single (piston) engine, single pilot IFR ops down to minimums and really don't think i ever would regardless of my skill level. So really don't think it makes much sense for all of the new panel avionics packages. I know a lot of people that have same very conservative personal minimums that i do but they are wanting the fully updated panels. It just seems like overkill to me.

I'm sure you have told people you bought an airplane, and they said why would do that, they are expensive, commercial is safer, and you can buy a nice car, the plane is old, etc

You probably just roll your eyes and think "you don't understand, I can't explain it", guess what....

[Cruiser]

N4048H sn 24-1019 has original paint and original panel no GPS but it does have an A/P and HSI listed 400 days ago @ $79,900

N4067H sn 24-1049 has new paint and all Garmin GPS panel listed 3 days ago @ $130,000

 

which one do you think will sell first?

[lukejb]

I'm sure you have told people you bought an airplane, and they said why would do that, they are expensive, commercial is safer, and you can buy a nice car, the plane is old, etc

You probably just roll your eyes and think "you don't understand, I can't explain it", guess what....

Yes, you are right. While the newer avionics are nice they are just not necessary to me to enjoy my airplane so i don't get it and probably never will unless there is something that changes to make pricing lower and more similar to what is in experimental aircraft. I had a radio go out in my citabria and put a new Garmin radio in it. Call me crazy if you want but I like my KX170B's in my Mooney better than my new Garmin in my Citabria. Had one of the KX170B's go out in my Mooney and i just bought a new one off of Ebay for $400 and swapped it out.

[lukejb]

*Not a new kx170b off of ebay a used one ha

[carusoam]

Luke,

Two planes?

You’re a madman!

Some people are addicted to HP (power/weight), some to Instrumentation, others to speed and efficiency...

You have a collection of platforms!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Luke is one of those lower time pilots with the airmanship skills of a 1500 hour pilot that flies 200 hours per year. And that Citatbria is largely to blame.

Some other pilots could learn some basic stick and rudder from him...go get your CFI, Luke

[lukejb]

Parker, thanks for the compliment. Still need to get you to help me get my Commercial knocked out! Thinking after the first of the year i will have the time to finish it up. Sure am glad i was able to get the instrument out of the way before the baby came....