Any Mooney versus a plastic airplane

[gsxrpilot]

I can't really participate in this conversation as I don't have the $200K entry cost.  If I had 2 or 3 hundred K in the airplane budget, I might actually do the research so I could have an opinion.  But at the $50K table where I'm a player, there isn't anything better for traveling.  Of course I'd still like to have an open cockpit biplane, a big wheel taildragger bush plane, a weight-shift trike, and maybe an RV8.  But when it's time for the wife and I to GO somewhere, the little M20C is the best there is in the $50K category.

[Guest]

I suppose I should have put in a qualifier…Every 4 place aircraft except for the Comanche 400.  I'm glad I don't have to put gas in that.

Its actually not bad on fuel. 35 GPH at takeoff and 16-20 GPH in cruise depending on how big a hurry I'm in.

Clarence

[Robert C.]

Sorry, but will have to disagree with you on that one. The carbon fibre and other "plastic" technologies have stood the test of time.

 

E.g., "Plastic" gliders have been around since the 70s and have held up just fine.

 

Moreover, without rivets and seams you have a cleaner hull and airfoil. Whatever may turns you away from plastic planes it shouldn't be the material from which they are built.

 

 

 

For me, a negative of the "Clorox Bottle" genre is that it has not yet passed the test of time.

 

There's no real world data on how well plastic-planes will absorb UV and repeated heating and cooling over the years.

 

While aluminum will definitely corrode, such is easy to spot; the degradation of structure in an aging plastic-plane may not be.  At best it is an unknown for now.

 

As long as they're new, there's no doubt they're great airplanes.

[Mooneymite]

Sorry, but will have to disagree with you on that one. The carbon fibre and other "plastic" technologies have stood the test of time.

 

E.g., "Plastic" gliders have been around since the 70s and have held up just fine.

 

 

 

Yeah, I guess I was comparing the clorox bottles to the aluminum airplanes from 1930, on.  For me, anything built in the 70's is a "newcomer"!  

 

You just can't be too careful.

 

I wonder how many of those sailplanes have actually been out in the elements.  All the gliders/sailplanes I can think of lead protected lives.

[fantom]

No self respecting Mooney driver, even if they hit the Lotto, could live with those $10,000 Cirrus annuals.

[Awqward]

...I fly it because it's cheap and efficient, and fuel here costs $11/gallon...

And here in Scotland we love going to France for that "cheap" avgas! And save around $5 a gallon... (£2.40/litre here = $14.63/USG)....and a few weeks ago in France with a Total card it was €2.02/litre= $9.75/USG

[pinerunner]

Apologies for the self-like…I was working off an iPad and trying to hit edit.  Fat fingers and sleepy eyes will get you every time.

 

Yes I have "retired" from the Navy and enjoying life serving GA in my new capacity.

That's what she said!

[1964-M20E]

And here in Scotland we love going to France for that "cheap" avgas! And save around $5 a gallon... (£2.40/litre here = $14.63/USG)....and a few weeks ago in France with a Total card it was €2.02/litre= $9.75/USG

That is great sounds like you go between countries like we go between states here.  

[Bartman]

I love my J, but one thing I would change would be the gear and biscuits.

[aviatoreb]

I had a Diamond DA40 before this Mooney.

 

The Diamond is a wonderful and forgiving airplane to fly.  And as attested it has THE very best safety record in all of general aviation, period.  And it is a pretty fast airplane for an airplane that is often used as a primary trainer.  Mine went 150kts on an IO360, and that was without wheel pants - I had top prop and power flow installed.  Very fun airplane too with the clear canopy.

 

Corrosion is one of the several nuisances of a fiberglass or carbon airplane.  Corrosion on a carbon airplane?  Yes - carbon airplanes that are IFR cert will have a metal sheet inside the wing, to mitigate electrical conductiveness with charged clouds, embedded and sandwiched within the sheets.  Then there are metal fittings throughout, screws, metal plates to receive the screws, etc.  Often of different metals.  These conduit electrochemical activity and any air whatsoever can allow for corrosion underneath the carbon at the metal.  Then it becomes a massively expensive job to scrape off the carbon, address the corrosion, and then reapply carbon.  The sort of $5k job to replace a few errant screws and metal fittings that cause the carbon to bubble up would be correspondently instantly accessible on a metal airplane where you just replace the small part.

[Ftlausa]

As part of my search for which airplane to purchase, I flew the SR20, the SR22 (about 10 hours), and the DA40 (about 40 hours).  The Cirrus are nice and roomy with two doors, technologically advances, and the side yoke was intuitive to fly, but the maintenance costs are significant.  The Avidyne panels have a questionable reputation, and are very expensive to repair.  The depreciation on the Cirrus are also a concern as well.  The two doors and the room in the Cirrus are a real plus, and the chute was appealing to non-pilot passengers, but costly to maintain.   

 

The DA40 is a super easy plane to fly and land, and the stick is kinda cool, and the viz is exceptional, but it is too slow and waaay to hot in Florida in that cockpit.  My iPad used overheat and shut down in the plane and I would get sunburned. 

 

Hence, I ended up with the Mooney for all the reasons many of you did.  I can say, however, I can envision a time when the Mooney shuffle to get in an out might get old.  The Cirrus might win the day then.       

[DaV8or]

I love my J, but one thing I would change would be the gear and biscuits.

 

Why? To what? I love the simplicity. Very low mx. My nose gear went 46 years without doing anything to it and it was still in spec. I changed the donuts just because. My main gear donuts have been in since 2007 and I have done nothing to them. Other than wanting smoother ride on the ground, I can't think of any reason why you would want a different system.

[aviatoreb]

As part of my search for which airplane to purchase, I flew the SR20, the SR22 (about 10 hours), and the DA40 (about 40 hours).  The Cirrus are nice and roomy with two doors, technologically advances, and the side yoke was intuitive to fly, but the maintenance costs are significant.  The Avidyne panels have a questionable reputation, and are very expensive to repair.  The depreciation on the Cirrus are also a concern as well.  The two doors and the room in the Cirrus are a real plus, and the chute was appealing to non-pilot passengers, but costly to maintain.   

 

The DA40 is a super easy plane to fly and land, and the stick is kinda cool, and the viz is exceptional, but it is too slow and waaay to hot in Florida in that cockpit.  My iPad used overheat and shut down in the plane and I would get sunburned. 

 

Hence, I ended up with the Mooney for all the reasons many of you did.  I can say, however, I can envision a time when the Mooney shuffle to get in an out might get old.  The Cirrus might win the day then.       

 

The parachute is quite a good sell - but less people per hour get hurt or killed in a DA40 by a lot.  Working from memory - but I believe less people per hour get hurt or killed in a Mooney, but not by a lot.

[Awqward]

That is great sounds like you go between countries like we go between states here.  

More or less....except that each country has different rules and regulations and language! Plus four hours notice to the Border Force when entering the UK....but apart from that!

But I have noticed a lot more plastic planes in Europe (cirri, Diamond etc) than Mooneys....

[bonal]

Perhaps now that they are being manufactured again you will see more of them across the pond. its realy a hard to beat aircraft.

[Guitarmaster]

No doubt the cirrus is a great airplane, but I can spot my Mooney on any crowded ramp! Gotta love that backward tail! Makes it look like it's doing 600 mph on the ground!! Love my Mooney!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jsavage3]

Guitarmaster, you are truly pickin' up what I'm layin' down.  You hit the nail on the head.  We're just in love with our Mooney's and there is nothing wrong with that...especially here on a Mooney forum, right?!

 

No doubt the cirrus is a great airplane, but I can spot my Mooney on any crowded ramp! Gotta love that backward tail! Makes it look like it's doing 600 mph on the ground!! Love my Mooney!

 

The field can be full of airplanes, but my eyes go to the Mooney every time...and the P-51 Mustangs, of course!  Sorta like what a fellow's eyes do when he likes green eyed brunettes and he sees a pretty one.

 

I find the Mooney rewarding for the very reason that it is demanding.  When I bring my Mooney smoothly to the runway and gracefully make the first turn off that sits midfield at my favorite "airport restaurant" airport, it never fails to bring a satisfied and knowing smile to my face.  Nothing needs to be said as I walk across the ramp because I know that my arrival just said it all for me.  Yes, the same turn off that I repeatedly watch the more forgiving C/P/B/plastic varieties routinely sail right by because they're still going too fast to make the turn.  I find the Mooney to be one that must be actually flown and it's invigorating to know you've just flown it well.  And then I start thinking about how far & fast I just flew on how little av-gas with my family of four plus luggage...oh yeah, all that and in an airplane that can be bought & owned for well under 100K!!!

 

I regret poking the plastic airplanes when I started this thread.  In hindsight, I'd have liked to say my Mooney parked next to any GA airplane...C/P/B/plastic, you name it.  It doesn't matter to me which airplane you park beside it (except for the P-51 Mustang), my eyes lovingly fondle the Mooney and they ignore the other brand sitting next door.  Is it OK to speak like this on a Mooney forum?  Absolutely.  

 

 

I own a Mooney because of its virtues and inspite of its faults. But again to each his own.

 

George, I know you sold your Mooney when you went overseas...did you buy another one when you returned stateside?  Thanks for your detailed Mooney-to-Cirrus comparison.  It was spoken like a true salesman!  

[GeorgePerry]

 

 

 

George, I know you sold your Mooney when you went overseas...did you buy another one when you returned stateside?  Thanks for your detailed Mooney-to-Cirrus comparison.  It was spoken like a true salesman!  

 

Yep…just picked up a M20S.  and OBTW, I'm no longer in sales, which really does make me happy.

[bonal]

As for the backward tails take a look at the P51 tail and you will note the trailing edge is the same as a Mooney's as for me I think all them others got the tails on backwards.

[DaV8or]

The parachute is quite a good sell - but less people per hour get hurt or killed in a DA40 by a lot.  Working from memory - but I believe less people per hour get hurt or killed in a Mooney, but not by a lot.

 

I agree that the safety record for the DA-40 is exceptional. Best in the fleet I believe, but I have to say that the DA-40 and the SR-22 are two completely different animals. The Diamond is more like the modern replacement for the Skyhawk, or Archer and the Cirrus is more the Bonanza replacement and like the Bonanza of the past, it appeals more to people that have more money than time to train and really want to try to run their own private airline using technology to cover for lack of skill or experience.

 

Sadly, the safety features of the Cirrus are up front and well known and this seems to embolden the eager owners to push on with confidence places they should never go. Kind of like airbags, roll over protection and anti-lock brakes has lots of people driving a lot faster and crazier than ever before. They are certain they will always be able to walk away.

 

The Diamond's safety features are subtle and beneath the skin and go unsung, but they work too. The Diamond pilot is more likely to be a student, a hobbyist, or someone carefully working their way up the performance ladder in conservative and methodical way. In short, the difference between the two planes and their safety records has a lot to do with the type of buyer they appeal to IMO. On paper the Cirrus should be the safest GA plane ever built, but it's not according to the stats. Despite the Klapmier's best intentions and efforts, the fool proof plane is still defeated by the fool.

 

The Mooney lives in the space between the Skyhawk/DA-40 and the Bonanza/SR-22. Likewise the accident stats mirror this. Not as safe as a Skyhawk, but better than a Bonanza. The Mooney too inspires some pilots to exceed their capabilities, but there are so many different Mooneys made over the years that there are lots of other folks enjoying them too. People stepping up carefully and hobbyists too. In the end it is mostly the pilot that kills the pilot and the plane can only do so much.

[cujet]

I like both construction methods, and our flight department has both composite and aluminum aircraft. However, I must admit that in certain conditions, composites fall short, far short. 

 

Our Eurocopter EC-135 is a composite helicopter. We've lost 2 sets of composite blades so far (due to cracks, delamination and outright structural failure) (in 965 hours total time) total cost about $500K each time. The airframe is relatively trouble free, and it's the aluminum components joining the composites that typically fail. 

 

Our Extra 300L has composite wings, spars and tail surfaces. These are very robust and hold up will, as long as you keep the thing out of the sun. It has a thermal indicator that says "RISK" when spar temperatures reach somewhere over 100 degrees F. That always worried me. As we see the "RISK" indicator if left in the sun for some time. 

 

Our Gulfstream G550 is mostly aluminum. The composite parts (cowls, flight controls, fairings) are nothing but trouble. From lightning strikes, to hail damage, to expanding ice (internal water) between layers and of course, erosion. We spend more unnecessary money repairing composites. The aluminum surfaces are 100% trouble free. And, I can't see a reason for Carbon Fiber ailerons, rudder or elevators on this bird. They are not "more sleek" or lighter. But they are significantly more fragile to certain types of damage. The cowls, I understand, as the shape would be difficult with sheet metal.

 

AND, the G650 avoids structural composites too. Gulfstream was able to achieve all aerodynamic goals with aluminum. 

[aviatoreb]

I agree that the safety record for the DA-40 is exceptional. Best in the fleet I believe, but I have to say that the DA-40 and the SR-22 are two completely different animals. The Diamond is more like the modern replacement for the Skyhawk, or Archer and the Cirrus is more the Bonanza replacement and like the Bonanza of the past, it appeals more to people that have more money than time to train and really want to try to run their own private airline using technology to cover for lack of skill or experience.

 

Sadly, the safety features of the Cirrus are up front and well known and this seems to embolden the eager owners to push on with confidence places they should never go. Kind of like airbags, roll over protection and anti-lock brakes has lots of people driving a lot faster and crazier than ever before. They are certain they will always be able to walk away.

 

The Diamond's safety features are subtle and beneath the skin and go unsung, but they work too. The Diamond pilot is more likely to be a student, a hobbyist, or someone carefully working their way up the performance ladder in conservative and methodical way. In short, the difference between the two planes and their safety records has a lot to do with the type of buyer they appeal to IMO. On paper the Cirrus should be the safest GA plane ever built, but it's not according to the stats. Despite the Klapmier's best intentions and efforts, the fool proof plane is still defeated by the fool.

 

The Mooney lives in the space between the Skyhawk/DA-40 and the Bonanza/SR-22. Likewise the accident stats mirror this. Not as safe as a Skyhawk, but better than a Bonanza. The Mooney too inspires some pilots to exceed their capabilities, but there are so many different Mooneys made over the years that there are lots of other folks enjoying them too. People stepping up carefully and hobbyists too. In the end it is mostly the pilot that kills the pilot and the plane can only do so much.

 

Quite right - the pilots are very different in nature who buy a DA40 vs an SR22.  The DA40 is maybe a better fairer comparison to the SR20, and I do not know how the SR20 safety stats break out.

 

Separate from the embolden Cirrus pilot who will launch into a blizzard with their parachute to save them stereotype, there are two things about the Cirrus which are specific problems in my opinion. 1) For some reason they seem to burst into flames unduly, and I have seen video of this. 2) they have a side yoke, and the early ones at least, that side yoke was tension with some kind of spring between the yoke and the control surfaces.  This muffled the feel of what the airplane is doing so maybe a bit easier to screw up and  stall spin?  That is what I read and that is what I agreed I felt on the one time I had the pleasure to fly one.

 

Meanwhile Mooney has rods to the control surfaces that emphasizes control feel, as does a DA40.

 

The DA40 does not have a wet wing, it has hardened fuel cells inside the wings.  This is why there has never been a post crash fire.

 

The DA40 being a 150kts airplane maybe competes with a M20F for traveling machine, although it has much less range than a M20F with long range tanks.  It lands and flies like a pussycat, like an Archer.  So it has its own niche in my opinion.

 

But yes, I agree entirely with your analysis and I was just adding my further observation.

[aaronk25]

I agree that the safety record for the DA-40 is exceptional. Best in the fleet I believe, but I have to say that the DA-40 and the SR-22 are two completely different animals. The Diamond is more like the modern replacement for the Skyhawk, or Archer and the Cirrus is more the Bonanza replacement and like the Bonanza of the past, it appeals more to people that have more money than time to train and really want to try to run their own private airline using technology to cover for lack of skill or experience.

Sadly, the safety features of the Cirrus are up front and well known and this seems to embolden the eager owners to push on with confidence places they should never go. Kind of like airbags, roll over protection and anti-lock brakes has lots of people driving a lot faster and crazier than ever before. They are certain they will always be able to walk away.

The Diamond's safety features are subtle and beneath the skin and go unsung, but they work too. The Diamond pilot is more likely to be a student, a hobbyist, or someone carefully working their way up the performance ladder in conservative and methodical way. In short, the difference between the two planes and their safety records has a lot to do with the type of buyer they appeal to IMO. On paper the Cirrus should be the safest GA plane ever built, but it's not according to the stats. Despite the Klapmier's best intentions and efforts, the fool proof plane is still defeated by the fool.

The Mooney lives in the space between the Skyhawk/DA-40 and the Bonanza/SR-22. Likewise the accident stats mirror this. Not as safe as a Skyhawk, but better than a Bonanza. The Mooney too inspires some pilots to exceed their capabilities, but there are so many different Mooneys made over the years that there are lots of other folks enjoying them too. People stepping up carefully and hobbyists too. In the end it is mostly the pilot that kills the pilot and the plane can only do so much.

Our club just had a 100 hour brain surgen get in one of our Piper archers fly 400 miles to Tulsa and crash on the runway with winds blowing straight down the runway at 18g 25. This person never helped with club activities or attended the meetings. The arrogance is unbelievable! Then this guy, until I got involved checked another plane out 4 days later without getting any additional instruction. I bring this up because this guy wants in on our cirrus club.....can you imagine what he would have done in a cirrus!

This happened last week.

[gsxrpilot]

For an airplane to qualify as "sexy" or "cool" it must either be a tail dragger or retract.  Fixed tricycle gear is automatic disqualification.

 

Just my $0.02

[Jsavage3]

Yep…just picked up a M20S.  and OBTW, I'm no longer in sales, which really does make me happy.

 

Welcome back George!  Anxious to hear about your Eagle!