ADS-B is coming-What are you doing about it?

[cliffy]

Just went to an FAA Wings Seminar on ADS-B. Now I am needing to get up to speed on what is the minimum req'd and what CAN be done.

 

It seems Canada and Mexico are going to require the ES Xponder only BUT neither will have the low altitude requirements that we will have here. We can get away with the UATs if we want and still go to either country. For those that are adventurous, Europe will be  (is) ES Xponder AND for those of you who go above 17,500' you will need the ES Xponder. For every one else, if you go to Class ABC airspace, fly above 10,000 MSL or go across the Gulf of Mexico you'll need to be ADS-B compliant but you can use the UATs. There are advantages to the UATs even for those needing the ES stuff like ADS-B "IN" weather and traffic (due to band width available on that freq). 

 

At the current rate of equipage in the US (@ 600/yr this year) there is no way all will be converted before the Jan 1. 2020 deadline. If you think that there will be a deadline extension- forget it! It ain't going to happen. Start thinking how being closed out of ABC airspace and not going above 9500' will affect you until you can get in line for installations! 

 

The Feds have also said that it will cost the GA fleet $1 BILLION dollars to equip BUT they only get $200 MILLION in benefits total! It's a financial loser for us but we are stuck with the mandate (I'll find the citation on this cost and post later).

 

The Feds need to convert so they can decommission half of their RADARS (even though it is a draw on costs to decommission or keep operating EXCEPT for the retirement costs of the controllers who operate them) and they have their side of the equation just about finished. 

I didn't find any discussion in search on this topic so maybe we need to start talking about this and keep it going for a while to sort it all out.

 

BTW, at the FAA seminars there is NO discussion on the mandate, no debate at all, the general attitude is comply or stay out of ABC or above 10,000'. It's a done deal period!

 

Maybe someone with a radio shop will chime in with good help on this thread.

 

 

[Mooneymite]

.

 

 

What am I doing about it?

 

Waiting until the solution is so clear and so cheap that I get off my lazy arse and do something.

[cliffy]

There is a possible solution in a portable unit for $1000 that requires your xponder code to be set by your iPad wifi BUT the Feds are balking at that function right now as far as approval goes. It would be 1K for "OUT" only and another 1.5K for the "IN" function if you want it (weather, traffic on the iPad). 

[Marauder]

.

What am I doing about it?

Waiting until the solution is so clear and so cheap that I get off my lazy arse and do something.

Amen to that! I have been waiting patiently on the sidelines for the manufacturers to align. They won't because there is too much money on the table.

If the GDL-88 displayed on my Aspens, it would be in my plane. It doesn't and I doubt it ever will. Aspen has been promising an ADS-B out solution since their announcement in March 2013 and it is still not out. I think the reason for this is that it is a repackaged FreeFlight unit and it was tied to their certification and OEM setup time afterwards.

I don't think we are going to see great leaps and bound in technology enhancements to the UAT or ES capabilities - so it is all coming down to who's crap is compatible with someone else's crap. And this is why I have been on a tirade about open hierachy for communication.

As I see it there are 4 classes of owners out there:

Class 1: early adopters who live with the short coming of the technology not working across all the platforms (and I'm willing to bet some don't even know it).

Class 2: those who have the financial means to throw whatever is out there in the plane and will be willing to pay more if it requires more to get full capabilities later.

Class 3: those (like me) willing to adopt but won't spend the money until I know I get the best benefit out of it.

Class 4: those who are still trying to figure it all out.

Class 5: the catch-all for all those who think the mandate will go away, that they will get out of aviation before 2020 and sell, hoping for a dirt cheap solution or those who think they will win the lottery and cost will be no issue.

[Marauder]

There is a possible solution in a portable unit for $1000 that requires your xponder code to be set by your iPad wifi BUT the Feds are balking at that function right now as far as approval goes. It would be 1K for "OUT" only and another 1.5K for the "IN" function if you want it (weather, traffic on the iPad).

You are talking about the SkyGuard TWX. I have seen Brett's setup. It works but does as you indicate, require a manual setting of the code. The owner of this technology is trying to obtain approval but as you know that is a mighty big hill to climb -- especially for a portable device.

[Sabremech]

I stopped by the L-3 booth at Oshkosh and think they have some very good solutions. From what they told me, the options will be from minimal compliance to all the bells and whistles you want. Their target market is small GA aircraft to VLJ's. More information on their Lynx system due out in September. It's something I'm seriously considering when I get more information and firm pricing.

 The other players in the market are too expensive for non portable solutions for my aircraft.

 David

[cliffy]

I will also predict that come 2019 there will be a depressed sales market for aircraft NOT ADS-B OUT compliant, even more so than the depression from not having a "newer" GPS com/nav system now. 

 

Yes. I was referring to the SkyGuard system and as you say, it will be a long uphill climb to get approval. 

[Mooneymite]

If I had to pull the trigger right now, the BK KT-74  would probably be my choice since I already have a KT-76A and a Garmin 430W.

 

However, there are some interesting developments at other companies that are giving me "analysis paralysis".  

 

Window shopping is a lot cheaper than buying/installing.  

[N201MKTurbo]

If enough people call their congressman and senators there will be an extension.

 

The FAA is not blameless in this. If the tech world was left to its own devices it could build a $1000.00 solution at GA quantities. The FAA is so slow and such a PITA to approve anything that they are going to kill the industry that they are supposed to regulate.

 

If the FAA felt the same urgency to find an economical solution as we do it would be done by now. But they could care less what it cost us to stay in the air or if any avionics companies make any money.

[PTK]

Amen to that! I have been waiting patiently on the sidelines for the manufacturers to align. They won't because there is too much money on the table.

If the GDL-88 displayed on my Aspens, it would be in my plane. It doesn't and I doubt it ever will. Aspen has been promising an ADS-B out solution since their announcement in March 2013 and it is still not out. I think the reason for this is that it is a repackaged FreeFlight unit and it was tied to their certification and OEM setup time afterwards.

I don't think we are going to see great leaps and bound in technology enhancements to the UAT or ES capabilities - so it is all coming down to who's crap is compatible with someone else's crap. And this is why I have been on a tirade about open hierachy for communication.

As I see it there are 4 classes of owners out there:

Class 1: early adopters who live with the short coming of the technology not working across all the platforms (and I'm willing to bet some don't even know it).

Class 2: those who have the financial means to throw whatever is out there in the plane and will be willing to pay more if it requires more to get full capabilities later.

Class 3: those (like me) willing to adopt but won't spend the money until I know I get the best benefit out of it.

Class 4: those who are still trying to figure it all out.

Class 5: the catch-all for all those who think the mandate will go away, that they will get out of aviation before 2020 and sell, hoping for a dirt cheap solution or those who think they will win the lottery and cost will be no issue.

May I suggest you don't hold your breath for "...manufacturers to align..." or for the GDL88 to display on your Aspens, because neither will happen. Nor should these happen. The GDL88 will however display on your Garmin just fine.

I predict what will happen is we're going to see Garmin further distance themselves from the rest. The "rest" will be loosely compatible with one another enabling folks to satisfy the mandate.

And as far as your analysis goes it's not that simple and clean cut.

There are also those who believe that since the inevitable fact is the ADS-B mandate is going to cost us some money, might as well spend the money wisely and have a panel that works as it should. ADS-B is a peripheral to a well designed and functional panel.

[1964-M20E]

Since I have already made the decision to upgrade my GPS to Avidyne IFD440 I will be getting their APX340 XPONDER which cover me for the ADSB requirements and they talk to each other since they are the same MFG.

 

Hopefully this will all happen first quarter next year.

[Mooneymite]

Since I have already made the decision to upgrade my GPS to Avidyne IFD440 I will be getting their APX340 XPONDER which cover me for the ADSB...

 

 

The KT-74 is listed as $2649.00 at AircraftSpruce.  As far as I can tell, the KT-74 and the APX340 are roughly equivalent, what "street prices" are you seeing for the APX340?

 

Any advantages of one over the other?

[ArtVandelay]

If enough people call their congressman and senators there will be an extension.

 

 

No way, money talks (commercial aviation, avionics companies have it, we don't). If anything I can see it move in sooner.

All that is needed is 1 collision or near miss, especially if it's involves a GA airplane.

 

As for a portable solution, is there ANY portable avionics equipment that has been certified?

[OR75]

If you can recall, AOPA pushed very hard for the ADS- B mandate. In my opinion GA got screwed in the deal with airlines being the big winners with potentially lower separation requirements and huge fuel savings.

That was the days when AOPA thought that its members were all going to fly jets.

GA gets free on board weather and traffic. Sounds nice but in reality not a big advantage as most of the flying we do is 300 NM or less. anyone has a statistic on the distance flown by GA single engine aircraft ? Twins ? Jets ?

Now that i ranted enough, answering the question:

I am waiting for the FAA to re-write part 23 to see what i will do. Procrastinating at the same pace they are.

[larryb]

GDL88 + GTN650. Best thing I did. I did it to get the traffic display. I still have XM for weather because there are more weather products available that I like.

 

Regarding display on the Aspen, I have an Aspen and see that as a non-issue. Traffic is kind of cluttering, so I don't need it on all of my displays. I typically have the GTN set to the traffic only screen. You'll get a voice alert if anything gets really close.

 

The world is changing, gotta keep up. Anybody still watching movies on a 26" Sony color TV fed by a VHS? Didn't think so...

 

Larry

[kevinw]

Amen to that! I have been waiting patiently on the sidelines for the manufacturers to align. They won't because there is too much money on the table.

If the GDL-88 displayed on my Aspens, it would be in my plane. It doesn't and I doubt it ever will. Aspen has been promising an ADS-B out solution since their announcement in March 2013 and it is still not out. I think the reason for this is that it is a repackaged FreeFlight unit and it was tied to their certification and OEM setup time afterwards.

I don't think we are going to see great leaps and bound in technology enhancements to the UAT or ES capabilities - so it is all coming down to who's crap is compatible with someone else's crap. And this is why I have been on a tirade about open hierachy for communication.

As I see it there are 4 classes of owners out there:

Class 1: early adopters who live with the short coming of the technology not working across all the platforms (and I'm willing to bet some don't even know it).

Class 2: those who have the financial means to throw whatever is out there in the plane and will be willing to pay more if it requires more to get full capabilities later.

Class 3: those (like me) willing to adopt but won't spend the money until I know I get the best benefit out of it.

Class 4: those who are still trying to figure it all out.

Class 5: the catch-all for all those who think the mandate will go away, that they will get out of aviation before 2020 and sell, hoping for a dirt cheap solution or those who think they will win the lottery and cost will be no issue.

I was on Aspen's website and they have the ATX100 that's ADS-B in and out for $3500. If you don't have a waas GPS they have the ATX100G for $5K. Looks like if you have an Aspen PFD (or planning to buy one) the ATX100 satisfies the requirement.

[scottfromiowa]

No one is making me buy a tv. A lot of options and something I enjoy and see value in. ADSB...not so much. My crotch does not hurt because I am not even on the fence regarding value to cost in purchase. Regarding mandate...there WILL be a delay on implementation. Just a question of how long. Radar will be up for a long long time as a viable option. We shall. See who is right.

I believe there WILL be a certified portable option to be compliant. iPads and GDL39 work great. Just certify a cost effective out option already.

[PTK]

I was on Aspen's website and they have the ATX100 that's ADS-B in and out for $3500. If you don't have a waas GPS they have the ATX100G for $5K. Looks like if you have an Aspen PFD (or planning to buy one) the ATX100 satisfies the requirement.

Try to buy one! They may send you a pretty glossy picture of one!

[Rhumbline]

 

The world is changing, gotta keep up. Anybody still watching movies on a 26" Sony color TV fed by a VHS? Didn't think so...

 

Larry

 

Not quite.  The CRT TV I'm watching is an RCA but the VCR feeding it is a Sony!

[Marauder]

I was on Aspen's website and they have the ATX100 that's ADS-B in and out for $3500. If you don't have a waas GPS they have the ATX100G for $5K. Looks like if you have an Aspen PFD (or planning to buy one) the ATX100 satisfies the requirement.

Unfortunately they been offering these products for a year on their site but you still can't get one delivered.

[carqwik]

The whole ADS-B thing confuses me....there is some different requirement if you want to get above FL180 (which I do from time to time)...and frankly I haven't bothered to figure any of this out yet.  I am so behind that my GPS isn't even WAAS (and can't be...it's a KLN94).  As I understand it at a minimum, I need a WAAS GPS just to get into the game, a new xpdr, and new antennas at a minimum.  Oh, while I am at it, ADS-B might not even present all the traffic out there after 2020 (do I have this right too?) so might as well install active traffic for my new WAAS GPS.  This is starting to add up....in terms of dollars.  My guess is that it will be north of $25 large...

 

So for now, I am sitting on the sidelines waiting for this all to be sorted through and hopefully delayed. 

[ArtVandelay]

  Oh, while I am at it, ADS-B might not even present all the traffic out there after 2020 (do I have this right too?) so might as well install active traffic for my new WAAS GPS.  This is starting to add up....in terms of dollars.  My guess is that it will be north of $25 large...

 

The ADSB wont show other aircraft that don't have ADSB, unless there is a ground station to act as a proxy.

 

But that is only available in busier airspaces, ie near airports, away from airports commercial traffic will be above 18000, so they don't care about GA planes below, hence no reason to build a ground station.

[aaronk25]

ADS-B sucks. All the government is doing is offering us crappy weather (compared to XM) and traffic in return for a loss of freedom by being able to track us everywhere we go instead of the option of going "1200".

Don't get me wrong I file IFR a lot, but soon we won't have a choice to go without being tracked....

I don't believe the ads-b thing is about decommissioning ground base radar to save money, since when does the government balance there check book anyways.

Am I a little hot? You bet. I just threw the 2013 GA survey in the trash can because it didn't have any questions on it only info that discloses more info! Where is the question "what could the FAA do better to serve the pilot community?"

I tell you what I'm gonna do....I'm gonna give the FAA boys the finger come 2020 just like they so kindly just gave the aircraft owners the finger last month see below:

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/July/25/Certification-reform-will-be-delayed-FAA-tells-Congress

Thats right, the FAA decided that it was going to ignore a LAW that was created by congress to have the part 23 non-commercial standard effective by December 2015 and just delay it AT LEAST another 2 years.....if the part 23 was in place we could equip for ads-b for a fraction of the price.

Well you know what? Screw it..I'll do the same and delay AT LEAST another 2 years past the mandate for equipping for ads-b.

The part 23 program was going to do so much for advancing safety features such as air bags, better autopilots ect for a fraction of today's cost.

Had my fill of the government lately...who are they serving these days.

[cliffy]

From my studying so far-

Bare minimum BELOW 18,000 you need a UAT with WAAS built in (if you don'y already have a WAAS GPS installed) to work with your current xponder for the mandated "OUT" properties (@$5000 installed). All will need ADS-B Out in some manner. Only "OUT" is required so if you don't want weather and traffic you don't have to buy the "IN" side of the equation.

 

If you go UAT you need to check its compatibility with YOUR xponder. Not all UATs work with all xponders. Check the installation manual for the UAT you are considering. 

 

If you go above 17,500 you will need an "ES" xponder period. 

 

UATs seem better for "in" and "out" info but are not good for 18,000 and above as they are not 1090 frequency which is required for Class A airspace.  

[ArtVandelay]

ADS-B sucks. All the government is doing is offering us crappy weather (compared to XM) and traffic in return for a loss of freedom by being able to track us everywhere we go instead of the option of going "1200".

Had my fill of the government lately...who are they serving these days.

IF you stay out of A,B,C airspace, E above 10000 or E above 3000 along the coastline...you can ignore it

 

They are not serving you because you do not give them big campaign donations....we have the best govt money can buy!!