Thoughts on Instrument Training in an E

[adamb.hicks4]

Hi again, all.  Sorry to jump right in but I am eyeing a couple of E models and wold like to make a move soon so I have really been doing my homework here lately.  I have about 270 hours, most of which took place in my Cherokee 180.  I would like to work on my instrument rating soon and am wondering if an E model is too much airplane with which to pursue this.  Of course I would want to become extremely proficient with it beforehand.  Any advice or input is appreciated!

[Seth]

I earned my Instrument Rating in my Mooney M20F after flying mainly Cessna rentals (C172, C182, PA28, TB9).

 

It's not too much airplane - just get to know the airplane well.  You can even use some of the dual time with an instructor as part of your insurance requirements toward your IFR ticket.

 

The F is a stretched version of the E.

 

Welcome aboard!  Good luck with the purchase.

 

-Seth

[MooneyBob]

I got my PPL in July 2013 and bought my J in December when I had 120 hours mostly in Cherokee. I started to fly again in February after my plane was finally ready and weather improved. No issues with the transition. But I tried to fly any minute possible. I started my IFR on April 1st 2014 and earned my IR ticket two weeks ago on June 1st. I had no issues with getting behind the plane or anything like that during my IFR training. I did 30.3 hours under hood and 10 hours on the simulator when weather was bad. ( My instructor wouldn't fly in IMC until very end). I flew almost 100 hours since February and that helped me to get and stay familiar with the plane. With all that said I don't think you will have any issues to do your IFR training in your E. You just have to fly as much as possible.

[BigTex]

As Seth said... I was working on my IR in a 180 when I bought my C Model.  I ended up putting my Instrument training on hold until I was very comfortable in my plane.  If you've not starting your IR training, then get your Mooney and put about 50 hours on it, and then start your IR training.   If you're more than half way through your training, continue in your 180.

[Hank]

Yep! I did my Instrument training in my C, which is a non-injected E with 20 fewer horses. Bought it with 62 hours, took a MAPA PPP at 100 hours, flew VFR to Yellowstone and back with less than 200. Once I finished grad school, I hit Instruments hard. There's nothing like training in the plane you plan to fly in the clouds, and there is also nothing like knowing the plane you train in.

Of course, after completing Instrument training, you will know the plane much better. :-)

[1964-M20E]

I earned my IR in an E model no problems.  My only suggestion is to turn off the autopilot during your IR training and while you are getting accustomed to the plane.  You should be able to do just about anything in the plane without looking when you start your IR training.   Learn to fly the plane by hand under the hood.

 

When you get your plane there is nothing stopping you from going up with a safety pilot and flying under the hood gaining valuable experience before you “officially” start on your IR and finally start reviewing instrument procedures (IP) and approaches now in a relaxed atmosphere and go out in VMC head up and fly the IP.  I like doing this at uncontrolled airports and make radio call letting other know where you are and what you are doing.  This will give you the confidence that when you can’t see if you follow the IP things are ok.

[Bob_Belville]

I got my IR in '78 in my first E a few months after I bought it. Had about 350 hours at the time I finished.

[rbridges]

I flew a cherokee 180 prior to getting my mooney.  I started my instrument training in it since I needed dual instructor time anyway.  I had ~110 hours total at that time.  It's a sweet plane for instrument flight.  

[chrisk]

It depends on your goals.  If your goal is to be the best in the plane you will be flying, then use the "E".  If the goal is your instrument ticket ASAP, then choose the simplest aircraft you can.  Remember the "E" has cowl flaps, gear, and a controllable prop, all of which come into play at different points of the approach (or miss).  And the "E" probably has a more pronounced nose up, which needs to be trimmed out on a missed approach. --You wouldn't want to be learning about that on a check ride or in hard IMC.

 

Having said that, if you have landings, approach speeds, and go-arounds mastered in the "E", I think you would be better served by getting your rating in the the "E".  --So, if you haven't started your training yet, I'd go for the "E".  Specifically, I would use the transition training as the start of your instrument training.   Your insurance company will likely require the time with an instructor.  If your close to taking your check ride, use the plane you have been using.

[PMcClure]

Learn in what you will fly if possible!

[pinerunner]

I'm getting my IFR in my E which was purchased for the purpose. Mooney's are ideal cross country machines for the dollar spent and make a lot of sense for someone who's looking for an efficient airport airplane. Although I was brought up on bush flying (Super Cubs and Cessna 180's) I really love my M20E as long as the mission fits. Mooneys are not hard to fly. The transition was no big deal. Speed control matters more, though. My maximum flap extension speed is only 100 MPH and is very easy to exceed. I think that was improved in the newer models but not sure. The yellow zone starts at 150 MPH and its not hard to get into it. I decided I'm OK with flying in the yellow when its smooth and then slow down into the green when I encounter much chop. 

 

Great choice for instrument trainer and XC machine.

[mike_elliott]

The E is an excellent instrument platform, as are most of the vintage Mooney's and J's. They are not a high workload platform, yet very stable for precision flying, which is what the IR is all about. Seek out a Mooney saavy IR instructor, someone who can teach you to be one with your E and all of its systems. Keeping the needles centered is only a part of the equation that is easily mastered after you are intimate with your plane, trim, avionics  and power settings for the different instrument flight phases. Your avionics and systems will dictate how long the process will be, along with your dedication. Good luck, this is the hardest, but most rewarding rating you will seek. You truly will be a better pilot for it

[231Pilot]

Learn in what you intend to fly.  The Mooney is a stable IFR platform and is excellent for IFR training.  I got my instrument ticket in my first Mooney (a 1967 C) and hand flew everything as the only autopilot was the wing leveler.  When I got my second Mooney (a 1982 J) I spent time with a CFII learning to fly approaches with the autopilot (and learning to take over when the autopilot suddenly disconnected (crafty instructor would turn it off at some point in the approach).

 

Don't go for the simple plane to learn instrument flying, go for maximum safety when you are flying your Mooney...learn in it.

 

You are going to have a lot of fun and be a much better pilot when you have earned your instrument rating.

 

Enjoy!

[John Pleisse]

Mooney's are perfect for this....in fact, preferable. You'll adapt in about two hours of air work....

[mooneygirl]

I have about 15 hours of IFR training in my E model.  I love it compared to the few hours of training I have in our Ovation.  The E is a simpler format, lighter airplane and in my opinion a perfect IFR platform.

[manu damaschin]

I did my IFR training in my 231...excellent platform!

[triple8s]

I did my IFR exactly opposite as to what most on here seem to have done, I did my training in a C 172 which had 430 WAAS and I am glad I got all the practice with the 430 and the gps approaches I must say I would get the training in my aircraft if I were to do it again. It probably was easier to handle the slower 172 while learning, it did leave me to almost "relearn" things. To make matters worse I traded my C model (short body) for an Ovation (R model) very soon after passing the check ride, so, if you are going to get a mooney and it has any decent radios at all I would get my ticket in that airplane. They are very stable IFR machines.

[Ned Gravel]

I have about 15 hours of IFR training in my E model. I love it compared to the few hours of training I have in our Ovation. The E is a simpler format, lighter airplane and in my opinion a perfect IFR platform.

+ 1. Responsive (for a Mooney). Light. And you can coax it along the edges of the envelope (like holding it off the runway until the purple dot on 36 at KOSH) during the formation arrival.

Stable as any Mooney and rock solid through the clag.

Sent from my iPad

[Bartman]

I bought my J with about 125 hours and started training soon after. Wife and I flew VFR on several 300-500 mile trips to gain cross country hours while working on IFR. After I got the rating we use it on almost all flights and it makes things soooo much safer and easier.

I know my plane very well and trust it with my life. After training IFR in your E you will know your plane well, and you will trust it with your life too.

[FloridaMan]

You're better off getting your IR in the plane that you will be flying in IMC. 

[WardHolbrook]

You're better off getting your IR in the plane that you will be flying in IMC. 

What he said.

[pinerunner]

Nice picture. Are you guys a flying couple? I envy you if you are. i had one friend who got into aviation along with his wife. They purchased a plane together and it worked out great. Wish I could get my wife to fly.

[FlyDave]

My only comment is to get comfortable flying the E before you start instrument training. Instrument training is stressful enough on it's own. But if the avionics, airplane management (hand knows exactly when and where to go for what) and power settings don't happen fairly automatically your instrument training will be much more difficult.

I had ~600 hour in my Cherokee 140  and was instrument rated when I bought my J in 2010. After flying the J for 17 hours I went under the hood with my instructor and a guy in the back. NEVER (before or since) have I been so embarrassed by my flying! I didn't know the 430 and I wasn't comfortable flying the plane. It takes time to really know an airplane. If you're still learning the airplane while you're trying to learn instrument flying you will be behind the curve.

Just my $0.02

[adamb.hicks4]

She is very enthusiastic about flying and I think she will work towards her license in the near future.  I would like to complete my instrument rating and be a little more educated/experienced when she does her private.  Then I'll have to worry about getting something she can train in I guess.

[Marauder]

My only comment is to get comfortable flying the E before you start instrument training. Instrument training is stressful enough on it's own. But if the avionics, airplane management (hand knows exactly when and where to go for what) and power settings don't happen fairly automatically your instrument training will be much more difficult.

I had ~600 hour in my Cherokee 140 and was instrument rated when I bought my J in 2010. After flying the J for 17 hours I went under the hood with my instructor and a guy in the back. NEVER (before or since) have I been so embarrassed by my flying! I didn't know the 430 and I wasn't comfortable flying the plane. It takes time to really know an airplane. If you're still learning the airplane while you're trying to learn instrument flying you will be behind the curve.

Just my $0.02

Dave -- pretty funny! But I get your point. I did my instrument training in my Mooney with not many hours after the purchase. I was also a low time pilot who just barely met the IFR "prerequisite" experience. I found the opposite to be true for me. Since I knew nothing about instrument flying, I was embarrassed all of the time without the excuse of being experienced.

It also forced me to buckle down and learn those systems quickly. I spent a bunch of time on the ground, touching, pulling and prodding the panel hardware mimicking a flight with the blinders on. I also invested the energy to read all of the POH numerous times and develop a routine to make sure I was still flying from the front seat.

When my kids were at that awkward age (too much weight to carry in my Mooney), I used those same skills to quickly come up to speed on the rental aircraft I used for those "heavy weight" flights.

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