TFR Interpretation

[Marauder]

I am planning a trip up to Lock Haven in Pennsylvania and came up this strange TFR. Anyone have an idea what it is for? I suspect since the area is covered with natural gas wells, that they are a couple of the bigger ones. I have never seen one of these before.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

These seem to pop up to keep folks from sight seeing.  I saw one recently for an oil spill near Galveston.  I've never seen one for a gas release.

[Hank]

There was one outside of CRW a couple of years ago when a several tens of tons of leftover WWII munitions were found . . .

 

Just trying to keep people safe!

[Joe Zuffoletto]

We can't call ourselves self-respecting Mooney pilots unless one of us busts it! 

[moodychief]

Do you have to bust it LOP or ROP?

[chrisk]

We can't call ourselves self-respecting Mooney pilots unless one of us busts it! 

 

The best reason yet to own a turbo Mooney.   Most of these are down low.

[Danb]

Since gas is involved Jose may know!

[Yetti]

I could think of several gas compressor stations around there.  You probably don't want to be making sparks up in the air if they are blowing down a pipeline.

[Mike A]

Natural gas is lighter than air, so any large scale purging of pipelines could produce a cloud of methane that is hazardous to aircraft.  The gas wells use large flare units that can release huge amounts of gas.  Even at distribution-level gas pressures, which are <1/10th of what i would expect these production and transmission companies compress to, we have to be very aware of what is overhead.  Our company completed a project adjacent to the Miami International Airport and had to alert airport operations prior to any purging so that runway 9's use could be discontinued during the purge.

[aviatoreb]

Natural gas is lighter than air, so any large scale purging of pipelines could produce a cloud of methane that is hazardous to aircraft.  The gas wells use large flare units that can release huge amounts of gas.  Even at distribution-level gas pressures, which are <1/10th of what i would expect these production and transmission companies compress to, we have to be very aware of what is overhead.  Our company completed a project adjacent to the Miami International Airport and had to alert airport operations prior to any purging so that runway 9R's use could be discontinued during the purge.

 

That's interesting.  What specifically is the danger?  Is it aeronautical?  Is it health of the people on board the airplanes?  Or is the gas in high enough concentration to risk that there would be an explosion as the engine ignites the gas in the air?

[rbridges]

Do you have to bust it LOP or ROP?

 

 

quit being dumb.  most important question is whether or not to have flaps down.

[wishboneash]

There are some lower and upper explosive limits explosions to occur. This link provides some interesting numbers.

 

http://postharvest.tfrec.wsu.edu/pages/N6I1A

 

"The limit of gas to air ratios between which explosions can occur, are expressed as lower explosive limit (LEL) and upper explosive limit (UEL). Outside of these limits there is no danger of explosion. For propane they are 2.2% (LEL) and 9.5% (UEL). This means that if there is less than 2.2% propane in a room, there is not enough fuel to explode, or if there is above 9.5% propane in a room, there is not enough oxygen present to allow an explosion. (For natural gas, the LEL is 5.3% and the UEL is 14%.) In addition to the gas, a minimum of 11% oxygen is requited to create an explosion with propane."

[bonal]

this TFR makes total sense. every time a big shot politian drops by to make a speech they issue the TFR so it seems whenever they are releasing a lot of hot gas you need to control the airspace.

[Marauder]

Thanks for the explanation Mike.

[jlunseth]

Its a UFO crash site.

[Yetti]

a 1000 PSI released from a 24 or 36 inch line would probably also be a "caution wake turbulence" type event.  While natural gas won't explode in the pipeline, Just where it reaches the right percentage when released into the air and the right spark from a plane.   See what happens when the percentage oxygen gets just right.  http://www.theeagle.com/blogs/fajitas_for_one/article_cab6128c-019b-11e2-8e7e-0019bb2963f4.html

 

I was 90 miles away in Houston and remember hearing and feeling the shock wave from this one.

 

I could look up the TFR and the pipeline maps and see.   I did see a pipeline right of way to the north of KLHV on google earth.

[Mike A]

Our meter station shares a fence with the perimeter fencing of MIA and is +/- 500' off the side of 9 at the beginning of the touchdown zone.  The site has a 722 psig operating pressure (for reference, the burner on your stove is 1/2 psig and a normal distribution pipes have pressures in the 50 psig range), so it could push some gas out.  I am not aware of how rooted in science the fear(s) that MIA had were, but I cannot blame them for not wanting to take the chance.

[1964-M20E]

I worked much of my career in the oil and gas industry doing engineering.  Yes there are lower explosive limits (LEL) and upper explosive limits (UEL) limits for fire or explosion to occur.  We generally alarmed at 40% LEL and initiated equipment shutdown at 60% LEL.

 

I witnessed several controlled blow downs of 30” to 36” high pressure gas lines (1200psi) they do create a nice large cloud but on the ground we only had a 150 to 300’ classified areas that was considered hazardous.  Yes natural gas Is lighter than air and begins to rise.  I find it hard to believe that after 1000 to 2000 feet up that you could find an atmosphere above the LEL of the gas.

 

I have also seen what a ruptured gas pipeline can do to the surrounding area of the leak when it is ignited and it is not pretty.

 

Giving these areas a lot of space is not a bad idea but to initiate a TFR more than 2000AGL is excessive.

[sreid]

Maybe that's above the stinky pants guy's house that I read about on the other thread?!

[N201MKTurbo]

You guys keep talking about explosions, but there might be an asphyxiation hazard for both people and engines. The gas could displace the oxygen that you and the engine need to run.

[ArtVandelay]

You guys keep talking about explosions, but there might be an asphyxiation hazard for both people and engines. The gas could displace the oxygen that you and the engine need to run.

If my memory is correct, there was a 747 that flew into volcanic cloud (in Asia?) and all 4 engines stopped, but I think it was because the fine ash as oppose to lack of O₂

They eventually got the engines restarted

[Marauder]

Wasn't one of the theories behind the Bermuda Triangle is the release of methane? Seem to read somewhere that methane released from the ocean floor was suspected in the loss of buoyancy for ships and for engine stoppage in airplanes due to a dramatic change in the stoichiometric mixture.

Actually thinking back, it might have been on a TV show.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mike A]

Wasn't one of the theories behind the Bermuda Triangle is the release of methane? Seem to read somewhere that methane released from the ocean floor was suspected in the loss of buoyancy for ships and for engine stoppage in airplanes due to a dramatic change in the stoichiometric mixture.

Actually thinking back, it might have been on a TV show.

Sent from my iPad using T

 

Yes.  I saw the same TV show

[cleatus99]

If the concentration high enough, could cause loss of lift? And engine stoppage?... Then crash into a vented gas site, talk about bad day getting worse.

[DrBill]

A few years ago I saw one of these over the natural gas range in Eastern West VA.

BILL