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No back spring in landing gear actuators

M20S Driver

By M20S Driver
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Niko182 Grand Master

Niko182

Posted
Posted
  On 11/4/2021 at 12:45 PM, LANCECASPER said:

They don't answer he phone like they used to, but I always get an e-mail back from Dan in a day or two. 

parts-mods@lasar.com

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I called yesterday and they picked up. ordered 2 washers from them.

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Sabremech
Sabremech

I do have PMA and am willing to support the Mooney fleet in those parts that it makes sense to get PMA on. I’m also willing to help as far as owner produced parts where it doesn’t make sense to go as

Yooper Rocketman
Yooper Rocketman

This has been a good discussion.  Even those not jumping on the wagon to change their springs right now clearly have this issue in the back of their mind.  I do and will be looking at it this annual.

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LANCECASPER Grand Master

LANCECASPER

Posted
Posted
  On 11/5/2021 at 8:01 PM, 1980Mooney said:

This is pathetic. Talk, talk, talk - nothing but talk by the new Mooney management.   This a small but unique and critical part required to keep the fleet aloft.  All this rhetoric about connecting with and supporting the existing owner base. A year ago GeeBee pointed out to Jonny Pollack how important it is.  Jonny responded here on MS "I am well aware" and "I am on it".

It has been a year - There should be buckets of these springs available.  Ok they are unique but it is not rocket science to manufacture (as Carusoam pointed out) and they can't cost all that much in the entire scheme of aviation parts..  And how hard is it to procure?? ....They are made by someone else - Mooney just needs to order the damn things. What is the problem?...I assume it is no cash.

More than a year ago Jonny told AviaitonWeek "Then we are going to take a break from producing aircraft for a while and focus on supporting the existing fleet and supporting parts production. But in supporting the fleet, we have to make some adjustments in our thinking. The short-term goal is to steady the ship and get parts out more efficiently."

https://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/aircraft-propulsion/sounding-board-five-minutes-mooney-international-ceo-jonny

Can anyone think of a rational reason why this is not an indicator of a troubling situation?   

Jonny

Hey! In fact, I'm well aware. We don't manufacture these, they come from a third party manufacturer. They have been on back order and I literally heard today that we're getting close. Please stand by, I am on top of this!

Jonny

 

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Almost every company has supply chain issues right now. A few years back almost all companies adopted the Just In Time attitude about inventory management - don't stock anything and let UPS and FedEx be your logistics managers. In the back of my mind I thought this would come back to bite the whole supply chain one day. Companies trained distributors and dealers not to carry any stock. One of the reasons things are so expensive is that express shipping is built in to all of the layers. One hiccup in the supply chain and there is no inventory out there to absorb the hiccup. Then it becomes trying to play catch-up. Mooney is not alone in this problem. Eaton the company that supplies the springs to Mooney is probably in the same dilemma, as well as the company that manufactures them for Eaton, as well as the company that produces the spring steel, etc, etc.

donkaye, MCFI Grand Master

donkaye, MCFI

Posted
Posted

I knew this was a problem at least 5 years ago.  I spoke with Tom Bowen, then Chief Engineer at Mooney at the time about it.  At  the time they said they were looking into it.  The Plessey springs were no longer being manufactured.  That is why I have recommended that a buyer of any Bravo or other Mooney adjust the price of the plane if it had a Plessey Actuator because they were likely to have to replace it--minimum $10,000 for a rebuilt Eaton one to much more ($15,000?) for a new one.

LANCECASPER Grand Master

LANCECASPER

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 1:40 AM, 1980Mooney said:

So you think Mooney is in the same "dilemma" as Eaton?....That Eaton's problems, Eaton's inability to deliver is what is dragging the Mooney supply chain down?!

Eaton announced 3 days ago on Tuesday:

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/eaton-notches-records-strong-q3-period

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/company/news-insights/news-releases/2021/eaton-reports-all-time-record-quarterly-results-.html

OK - Since Eaton doesn't seem to have any material problems do you have any more excuses for Mooney management?  Come on, it is a critical spring, a single part- it has been over a year - I can understand a few month delay but this is indefensible. 

When are people here going to take off the rose colored glasses?

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Yes, if you're going to do the research, do it all the way. Eaton, like almost all companies at the moment has supply chain issues also. On Monday call them up and tell them you want 20 of the part number for the back springs and find out what the lead time is. If it's less than 90 days I'd be surprised, probably more than 120 days.

"Electrical equipment supplier Eaton (ETN) is benefiting from strong demand tied to the growth in renewable power generation as well as vehicle electrification. Management says company sales will grow faster for the next few years. But for the third quarter of 2021, “we’re going to have some challenges…with respect to our revenue,” said CEO Craig Arnold at an investment conference Wednesday. Like MasterCraft, supply-chain problems are the issue. Parts aren’t getting there on time.

Eaton shares are down 1.8%, at $156.45, in recent trading."

https://www.barrons.com/articles/supply-chain-issues-are-about-to-hit-earnings-what-to-expect-51631888409

LANCECASPER Grand Master

LANCECASPER

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 2:57 AM, 1980Mooney said:

I’m not agreeing with you but for the sake of argument let’s just accept your estimate of 90 to 120 day lead time for the springs from Eaton. So on October 9, 2020, when Jonny stated here on MS that “I’m on top of it ( no back Springs)“, if he told Purchasing to place an order for 500 Springs from Eaton, then they would be shipped to Mooney Corp on January 9, 2021 or at the latest February 9, 2021. …. So where are they?  It’s now 9 months beyond the longest delivery date even by your estimate. 

What lame excuse are we going to dream up now?  More likely they were never ordered or not in sufficient quantity - why?  - lack of resources

I am not saying that there aren’t any supply chain issues. Eaton correctly calls them challenges but not impediments. And if you’ve ever worked in corporate industrial America you know that every executive right now is sandbagging their goals with hyped up “supply chain issues“ in order to help them make their bonuses. 

It has been over a year since the CEO committed to solve this issue. There has not been a peep out of the company regarding order status or delivery date. No MSC has any. There are planes grounded. Where is the communication and connection with the existing customer base that the new Mooney management promised?

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Why would you agree with me when you don't agree with anyone else one here?

 

At $1000 retail it would take a complete idiot to order 500 springs when there were possibly 15-20 orders at that time in late 2020. He filled the orders that were made and those airplanes have been flying for many months. Now there are more orders. In the present situation if he is fiscally responsible he is not going to stock parts, since there are thousands of parts on a Mooney. They manufacture a part or place an order with a vendor when they have enough demand. If an owner or MSC wants to stock parts, let them, but that will take advance planning on the part of the individual or MSC. A year later the wait time is longer this time for the above-mentioned reason (wide spread global supply chain issues).

I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else for the same reason I don't go in the mud and wrestle pigs. The pig and I would both get dirty and the pig actually enjoys it.

jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 10:38 AM, ArtVandelay said:

If Eaton would make 500 springs for $300, maybe we could use the power of MS and do a bulk order, count me in for 1.

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But the suppliers will only sell them to Mooney. . That’s the problem here too…

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RoundTwo Mentor

RoundTwo

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 12:45 PM, jetdriven said:

But the suppliers will only sell them to Mooney. . That’s the problem here too…

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I would think Lasar would be willing to give a nice discount for a bulk order like that. It would be a great sales point for any aircraft. “Comes with free replacement spring” :)

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 11/6/2021 at 6:06 AM, Will.iam said:

Guess i should order my spring now so that when a year later of flying and i need  to replace it ill have one. 

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I think pretty much everyone who expects they will ever get to the replacement time to order one.

‘I fear it may be that one day soon, the source will dry up and none will be available, besides if 100 or us have them on order, maybe Mooney will be more likely to drop that order.

‘If Mooney is only marking up 300%, then their mark-up is far less than other manufacturers, mark-up is variable of course, and even determining how much a part you manufacture costs is difficult, do you take the time it takes to make one or ten, do you include tooling set uptime etc? Sometimes it takes very little more time to make ten than one.

Edited by A64Pilot
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A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 10:38 AM, ArtVandelay said:

If Eaton would make 500 springs for $300, maybe we could use the power of MS and do a bulk order, count me in for 1.

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Unfortunately it wouldn’t be an approved part, to be approved it woud have to go through Mooney’s QC system.

Surely this or any spring is only a few bucks if ordered in sufficient quantity, if someone has a PMA then they could order and sell it.

ArtVandelay Grand Master

ArtVandelay

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 1:35 PM, skykrawler said:

So if you have an old spring, you could send it to them and they could replicate…it also would be legal because it qualifies as a owner produced part.
But there’s no legal way of a mass order if I understand the regulations correctly.
toto Grand Master

toto

Posted
Posted
  On 11/6/2021 at 2:50 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

I think a bad batch or a few bad batches of springs are probably responsible for this SB.  Not a design defect.

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That was my understanding too. A bad batch of springs. 

The hours guidance always seemed like a poor proxy for gear cycles. One plane could have 5000 gear cycles in 1000 hours, and another one could have 500. 

LANCECASPER Grand Master

LANCECASPER

Posted
Posted
  On 11/7/2021 at 2:18 PM, Steve Dawson said:

Thanks Gentlemen, 

Just to clarify, this means that Plessy is different then Eaton/Vickers? And the Eaton/Vickers is the better actuator? 

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Plessey was used in early ('89 - '91-92ish) M20Ms. After that the Eaton/Vickers was used and it is an improvement since there is still parts support.

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Steve Dawson Experienced

Steve Dawson

Posted
Posted
  On 11/7/2021 at 2:24 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Plessey was used in '89 - '91-92ish in M20M. After that the Eaton/Vickers was used and it was an improvement.

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Great and thanks, My Bravo is a 90 so it looks like it was updated. There's a very brief log book entry but it doesn't clarify what happened. 

PT20J Grand Master

PT20J

Posted
Posted

Does anyone know the whole history of these actuators? It's pretty confusing. It seems Mooney used actuators made by Dukes, Vickers, Avionics Products, Eaton, Plessey -- did I leave any out? It doesn't seem that any of theses are off the self parts so I assume they were built to Mooney specs. But there are differences. Some have 20:1 gearing, some have 40:1. They all seem to incorporate no back springs, but apparently the springs are not the same for all makes. Different models look physically different. Are they all physically interchangeable?

Edit: Which ones are the best and worst for maintenance and reliability?

Skip

RoundTwo Mentor

RoundTwo

Posted
Posted
  On 11/7/2021 at 4:39 PM, PT20J said:

Does anyone know the whole history of these actuators? It's pretty confusing. It seems Mooney used actuators made by Dukes, Vickers, Avionics Products, Eaton, Plessey -- did I leave any out? It doesn't seem that any of theses are off the self parts so I assume they were built to Mooney specs. But there are differences. Some have 20:1 gearing, some have 40:1. They all seem to incorporate no back springs, but apparently the springs are not the same for all makes. Different models look physically different. Are they all physically interchangeable?

Edit: Which ones are the best and worst for maintenance and reliability?

Skip

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Skip,

Is there a way to identify/know which actuator is in a specific plane? Serial no., specific components in the cabin, or does it require removing the belly?

Thanks,

R2

EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
  On 11/7/2021 at 6:45 PM, RoundTwo said:

Skip,

Is there a way to identify/know which actuator is in a specific plane? Serial no., specific components in the cabin, or does it require removing the belly?

Thanks,

R2

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If there isn't an entry in the logbook due to maintenance indicating which one is in there, taking the belly off might be necessary.

 

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