Whats going on with values of the older fleet?

[Marauder]

I think Bob got that route because he forgot to call me over to KLNS for lunch

He probably got that route to keep him away fro Camp David. It's hot this weekend.

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[Bob_Belville]

I think Bob got that route because he forgot to call me over to KLNS for lunch

He probably got that route to keep him away fro Camp David. It's hot this weekend.

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Oh, I thought about our lunch date but yesterday's weather to the south meant you'd have had a distracted companion. (I'm picking up Nancy at the end of the month and I'll see if we can make contact.) FltPlan.com sent me the likely routing... by email at 5:00 this morning!  

 

As far as doing it the hard way... I did it for years, I flew N9249M in almost every kind of conditions and into many busy airports, Dulles, Logan, Phli, Midway, DFW, Detroit... with DME, Narco RNAV, and Stormscope. Before I added those "toys" I did it with VOR & ADF. It's not that it can't be done, I can still use a slide rule and an abacus, but why would I when touch screen moving maps with weather and traffic is available? (I came into MRN last night in a shower, 3 mile visibility lots of low clouds. ATC gave me the minimum altitude, the GPSS flew me right to the field and I was able to throw out the speed brakes @ 3300 AGL and slide in to my home field w/o shooting the 20 minute instrument approach after 7 hours of flying. 

[DrBill]

Makes that investment well worth it, doesn't it ?

Bill

[Mooneymite]

..... Essentially, I need ILS and VHF comm capability. ......

I was in that situation, too. However all the VOR-DME and NDB approaches around me started going N/A by NOTAM and the closest ILS approaches weren't very close, so if I wanted to use the closer airports, I had to upgrade to an approach capable GPS.

The purchase price and install cost have been forgotten, but the high cost of a current database (when figured on a dollar/approach basis) still chaps my arse.

[rbridges]

The purchase price and install cost have been forgotten, but the high cost of a current database (when figured on a dollar/approach basis) still chaps my arse.

 

if it gets too costly, you can always sell your wife's horse.  

[ArtVandelay]

The purchase price and install cost have been forgotten, but the high cost of a current database (when figured on a dollar/approach basis) still chaps my arse.

It would be nice to be able to query the GPS DB and then use airnav.com or some other source to find out if approaches of your intended destination(s) have changed. I guess you could just go by the date of the GPS DB vs the date of when approach was updated.

[Mooneymite]

if it gets too costly, you can always sell your wife's horse.

Ha! If we get into dueling for dollars, my planes will be a faint memory before Kwirky gets sold.

[Piloto]

No matter how much stuff you put in an old plane still an old plane. Planes for sale are classified by year of manufacturing. A potential buyer would rather buy a limited equipped 1977 M20J vs. a fully equipped 1966 M20E for the same price. It is very much like cars, TVs, boats, computers, the oldest are the cheapest. Even on this forum where would you rather belong to; Modern Mooneys or Vintage Mooneys. Even in society age plays a significant role. No matter how good you are you cannot drink alcohol before 21 or get Medicare before 65. Even on dating they have these new web clubs for people over 50+ or the AARP membership. Age is a dominant factor on everything.

 

José  

[philiplane]

Age is indeed the dominant topic. Second only to the fact that general aviation is slowly dying, and that is the root of the price dilemma. There is no strong demand, and none is on the horizon as the population ages, and fewer new pilots come along.

 

There is no way to sugarcoat this simple fact. 

 

Only the newest, best equipped planes are holding value. Because those planes are typically used for business, so their expenses are borne by companies. They are not weekend toys. I deal with this market segment and it is booming. But the rest is slowly dying.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm not sure I agree with Piloto.  I gave low J money for a very well equipped C and am very happy with the decision.  

[Marauder]

I'm not sure I agree with Piloto. I gave low J money for a very well equipped C and am very happy with the decision.

I agree! Age is a starting point. But if I were in the market today, I would be looking for condition, maintenance history and equipment. I recently saw a 1990s O that was in poor shape due to sitting in a hangar for the past 10 years.

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[Cfidave]

I recently purchased a 1965 M20E for 47K. 3450TT, 1450SMOH, 450 STOP. 2002 paint & interior. Garmin 430W, Stec 60-2 AP, 2013 Bladders, new Top Prop, new style landing gear. I believe the Mooney evaluator had it at 51K. During my search ( 2 months ), I couldn't find much for less then 40K, either high time, decent avionics, or low time with old avionics and leaky tanks.

[Alan Fox]

The Market stinks , I just sold my 65 E for 30 K .....

[Steve65E-NC]

We can hope that the revival of the Mooney factory and brand will positively affect the value of our aircraft.  I wonder if we will not see a trend toward buying these older airframes and shipping them off-shore.  When buyers see the price on the new aircraft and compare capability and operating costs, I believe there will be increased interest.   Many buyers are afraid of orphaned products.  That is no longer the case for Mooneys.  Also, I think the low operating costs and relative simplicity of repair and maintenance will make our older airframes ideal for developing economies and  with early entrepreneurs trying to move around quickly.

[Bob_Belville]

Can anyone speak on how the prices for our vintage fleet compare to older Piper, Cessna and Beech retractables over the past few years?

[Wildhorsesracing]

I have always had a love affair for V-tail Beech's and they seem to be stable.

[Alan Fox]

Not the older fleet , I bought my V tail in 2011 for half of what I could have bought it for in 07......

[sufferingcadet]

I paid 25k for my '66E earlier this year.  I was considering stripping and repainting the plane myself and maybe redoing the interior and seeing if I could sell it for 40k next year.  I'm building an RV-10 and selling the mooney would help pay for avionics in the RV.  I don't know why prices are so low.  For the price, you can't beat an older mooney in terms of value. 

[ryoder]

I paid 20k for mine and for that I got a 2400 hour airframe, retractable gear, two owners, good paint, good interior, 180hp, and ifr. If I tried to do that in a Cessna I would be at double the cost if I could even find one. I don't know why the prices are so low. Mine needs a new engine soon but it was priced accordingly and I certainly don't need paint.

[Guest]

Aircraft values are dropping because there just aren't enough new pilots entering our hobby, and many older pilots are being priced out. Essentially you need to be prepared to scrap your plane at the end of your time with it. There will be very few left who want them.

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

Aircraft values are dropping because there just aren't enough new pilots entering our hobby, and many older pilots are being priced out. Essentially you need to be prepared to scrap your plane at the end of your time with it. There will be very few left who want them.

Clarence

Sad.

Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest as our highways get more congested. :-)

[Alan Fox]

Certain airframes are holding steady , Newer Bonanzas , 210s , big Piper singles , 172s and Archers ......Either classic trainers , or true 4 or more place aircraft...... The Mission really dictates the Values.....Another reason our legacy Mooneys are going south , is that they are having Corrosion issues , and apparently the cost to do Mooney corrosion repairs is excessive.......Bottom line , Our airframes have too much steel in them....

[1964-M20E]

I beleiveeeeeeeeeeeee

 

That if the FAA would allow us to enter our aircraft into the experimental ranks we would see an increase in value. IMHO

[Rhumbline]

We can hope that the revival of the Mooney factory and brand will positively affect the value of our aircraft.  I wonder if we will not see a trend toward buying these older airframes and shipping them off-shore.  When buyers see the price on the new aircraft and compare capability and operating costs, I believe there will be increased interest.   Many buyers are afraid of orphaned products.  That is no longer the case for Mooneys.  Also, I think the low operating costs and relative simplicity of repair and maintenance will make our older airframes ideal for developing economies and  with early entrepreneurs trying to move around quickly.

 

Blasphemous as it may be, I am highly skeptical of Mooney's ability to compete in the long game.  If they are able to stick it out long term, I have a feeling that their focus will sooner or later shift to new product development and support of a modern fleet.  The antique fleet may find itself orphaned by the manufacturer with a few third party firms specializing in the brand and keeping the diminishing numbers flying as has been the case heretofore. 

 

I seem to recall an exodus of used aircraft going overseas in the late '80's & early '90's.  If I ever knew the reason for this I have since forgotten.  Whatever may have driven that demand, however, the aircraft going were much newer at the time and likely had far better support.  

[Rhumbline]

Aircraft values are dropping because there just aren't enough new pilots entering our hobby, and many older pilots are being priced out. Essentially you need to be prepared to scrap your plane at the end of your time with it. There will be very few left who want them.

Clarence

 

This is unquestionably at the core of the matter.  Having been out of aviation for some time, I bought a clean, low time and solid little airframe on an impulse.  Though I had an idea of the cost of maintaining an airplane (ie expensive), I naively failed to consider just why I was getting such a good deal on this little plane.  I also failed to realize how quickly all the "little" issues affecting a 45 year old airplane begin to add up.  The cost of radios, fuel tanks, engine overhauls, paint, interior, etc are all well discussed throughout this forum and, though most may only have to address a limited number of these expenses but once,  all of these are quite expensive and will probably add little or nothing to the value of the airframe in the end.  The biggest value added now is not much more than that which the current owner places on it.  In my opinion, it is not likely to be realized as equity in the not-too-distant future.  For myself, I quickly concluded that the airplane would be, in all probability, a throw-away if I kept it for more than five or ten years as I see little hope in recouping much of the total investment. 

 

Evident in the level of desertion I note every time I'm at the airport; I recently purchased a hangar with a similar attitude.  The losses in these "investments" are merely the expense associated with this increasingly "unique" form of recreation.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, were I not already certificated, I would never have gotten into aviation today.