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Well, today I can call myself a Mooney owner... thanks to all posters. Y'all yelped me purchase a great bird through my lurking MooneySpace. A special thanks to kortopates for allowing me to sit in his plane and his insightful advice. Another special thanks goes out to kmyfm20s for helping with the inspection, bore scope, and A&P recommendation. I can't thank you gentlemen enough! Jon

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE MOONEY INTERNATIONAL M10 POC ACHIEVES FIRST FLIGHT Innovative Fixed-Gear M10T Aircraft Completes First Flight in Chino, California CHINO, CA (DEC. 23) — Mooney International Corp. has successfully completed the first flight of the M10T Proof of Concept (POC) aircraft. The first flight was performed by test pilot Len Fox on Wednesday, December 23rd in the vicinity of the Chino Airport in California. The flight lasted approximately 15 minutes, with Len Fox conducting basic flight maneuvers and verifying design data. At the conclusion of the flight, Len Fox was greeted by a crowd of engineers from the M10 team highly enthused to see their new design take flight for the first time. “The flight was a tremendous milestone for the M10 program,” said Jerry Chen, CEO of Mooney International. “Our team of engineers have been working very hard to reach this day, and we are excited to have achieved this milestone in 2015, just one year after announcing the M10 program at Zhuhai Airshow in China.” The M10T, announced in 2014, is Mooney International Corporation’s highly innovative, new design, carbon-fiber, 3 seat, fixed-gear aircraft. Powered by the Continental Technify CD-135, Jet-A engine, the M10 is a new generation aircraft designed by Mooney specifically for flight training operations. The M10T will continue testing as the program works towards certification in the next few years. About Mooney Mooney has manufactured and delivered more than 11,000 aircraft worldwide. Today, more than 7,800 customers in the United States and 1,000 more overseas fly these proven, high-performance airplanes. Mooney proudly serves its customers from its locations in Kerrville, TX and Chino, CA. For more information, visit www.mooney.com, and follow Mooney on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

This is why I don't like the internet.

This weekend I paid my IA for an inspection after he already observed repairs. He brought his grandson over in his golf cart and I shook his hand and remarked on how big he got since the last time I saw him. Clemens finished the inspection and signed off the logs and I asked how much I owe him. He said 20 bucks. I handed him forty and said Merry Christmas. He handed one of the twenties to his grandson. I told him he would make a great mechanic one day and he smiled brightly.

Hell, I'll build a Web based setup and sell it to you for parts cost if you're interested and it works how I want. Be a fun project. Probably cost fiddy bucks. Might be awkward to set up for the first time as you'd need a keyboard and display device unless you ssh in but very manageable. Or I can set up the ssid and pass before I send it and hope it works. At least it'll be safe

I have generally resisted having postings about shop quality, as I feared seeing a good shop/guy getting bad publicity from a single disgruntled customer. However, we see those disgruntled customers posting anyway (not referring to the original poster here). Maybe if we had a kind of permanent survey with a simple 5 choice list (1) Great shop - I highly recommend (2) Satisfactory - I would use them, but would prefer a better shop (3) Neutral (4) Not good - I would not go there unless AOG (5) Bad - I would pay some someone to move my plane before I would let them touch it again. If enough people contributed, a prospective customer could check the percentage numbers so a single mad customer would be evident among the good reviews. Would it be possible to limit it to one review per shop per pilot, so someone could not intentionally sway the poll.

So I made it down to Jack Brown's on Friday and passed the SES check ride Saturday afternoon. Man, was it a lot of fun. Ground school was about 1.5 hours followed by approximately 3.5 hours flying on Friday and 1.5 hours on Saturday. After the last flight, my instructor (Eric who was awesome) reviewed the study guide and the check ride was about an hour later. The only problem is now I'm looking at float planes in tradeaplane. I took the course in the J3 so I was able to add a new plane to my logbook and check off my flight review for another 2 years. Kris

I used Don Maxwell for the prebuy on my Bravo. I've also called Don on a number of occasions and he is more than willing to dig into an issue on the phone. Don is one of the nicest people I've met in aviation and if I lived near his shop I'd use him for everything! At home, Petaluma, CA (o69) I use Mangon Aviation. Ron Mangon is a "tool guy" and has amassed a number of Mooney Specific tools over the years. Mangon isn't a MSC but have a fair amount of Mooney experience.They aren't cheap but they do quality work.

We are very fortunate up here in the Philly area to have two of the best MSCs just a short hop away. Weber at LNS and Air-Mods and Repair at N87. I have experience with both and can attest that Dorn and Dave, respectively, are the cream of the crop when it comes to honesty and Mooney excellence.

Can we create a registry of Mooney shops with reviews that is searchable? would be a cool feature

It's hard to beware of shops that rip customers off when the owners remain silent about the shop that did the ripping off. It's not a transparent market. I'd say when your plane breaks down on a trip it's not a market at all, it's a free opportunity to stick it to the hapless owner. These boards are full of it. Now I've been lucky sunshine aviation in KLEE Florida really did me right, pulled a mag and reset the points and had it back together by noon. But I got burned on the prebuy where the shop actively hid the cylinder they pulled off for a prebuy because it had corrosion. And a 450$ alternator install job. BM at KAXH.

This is a great video over on the AOPA formus illustrating the danger of wake turbulance. Worth the two minutes: On take off behind a large/heavy aircraft, wait two minutes. On landing, land after the the touchdown point. -Seth

Not even close. You can own this plane for a lot less than that. I have not added everything up yet to come up with an asking price, but it will be somewhere south of 175K. There's no way you could reproduce it for the price.

I think he is just passing on an interesting, if unfortunate, tale of sorrow of a once proud Mooney, and its unscrupulous owner. A tale as old as time...

Unfortunately 'Known Ice' only applies to Dual Alternators, and I think 28V although I haven't called CAV to check on the 14 vs 28V part.

Clarence, No problem and thanks for the clarification. I do agree that a deal is a deal and if you make it, you should stick to it. My only problem with the shop now is the owner is ignoring my request for a receipt stating that I paid him in full. Without that, he can reneg and change his mind at any time and simply claim I didn't pay him in full for whatever amount he wants. In other words no where did he put in writing about our agreement. What if he decides 6 months from now to put a lien on my plane? This is a conundrum part 2 lol. Mark

The GPS is a klx 135a, I think the DME is a KN-62a.

I bolluxed more things transitioning into the Mooney than I care to think about. The one thing I never forgot was the gear. The Johnson bar does that.

I was speaking of mph, sorry. Stall speed for mine dirty is 57mph, so I'm not terribly worried about stalling in the pattern. I also keep the ball centered and don't use rudder to recover and overshoot. That said, if you're really worried about a stall spin scenario in the pattern, invest in vortex generators. You'll never stall your airplane, ever. To be honest, once dirtied up my Mooney flies almost exactly like a trainer, probably why they make trainers the way they do. Biggest difference is I have to be way more accurate with my speed or I float. I like what I do mostly because every CFI I've ever had stressed a stable approach. I can slam dunk an airplane with the best of them (well, maybe not with the best of them but I haven't balled anything up), I've done it before and I'll certainly do it again at need. But I certainly don't want to to that every time. Lots of distractions in the pattern, lots going on. I want a nice, predictable, and slow task flow. I'll leave the zoom takeoffs and crazy landings to the RV crowd. They seem to like that sort of thing.

Diesel 10: Your point about RGs is very valid. The landing gear is very much a part of the deceleration calculations. Airplanes (and seats) are currently not designed for high vertical deceleration. The seats and/or structure would have to be redesigned for those loads (and get heavier). As a weight comparison, look at seats from older Cessnas to the new ones. The new ones are designed for a 26G "forward" crash ... and they are significantly heavier. So I don't get blasted again, yes, we can add a system to an airplane to make the gear come out automatically when a chute is pulled, BUT ... There's a nasty little regulation 23.1309 (system safety) that goes through all the probabilities of all the failure modes of everything on the airplane. Now we have to address an uncommanded chute deployment and an uncommanded gear extension ... at any time in the envelope. ... and that adds weight, too. Not saying that it can't be done. PS. Yes, product liability costs are very high. And. yes, we are in a sad state of affairs in the US on product liability. If we would compare it to automobiles, it would be like someone rebuilding a 1955 Chevy "Bel Aire" hot rod from the ground up (few to no parts that actually came from GM), and then getting in a fatal wreck. So the widow sues GM for $20M because the car didn't have shoulder harnesses, air bags and an automatic braking and steering system that should have seen the other automobile and light pole and reacted appropriately. In my opinion that wouldn't make it to court in that industry. In the aviation industry it does. Fly Safely.

I'm almost more amazed at the vitriol this subject has created. If what happened to me happened to any of you I am certain all of you would be angry in your own way. The only difference between any of you gentlemen might be the method you chose to proceed. In the end I felt I did the right thing by compromising and avoiding an unnecessary battle. Lessons for me learned. Next time I'll choose much more carefully. Again, I thank all of you for the input and advice!

They took something that had a logical flow and changed the logic. Starting with a blank flight plan page, you can build a route and then hit file & brief. When you do this, it will populate the trip planning page but you need to check the departure times. That is what was happening to me above. It moved it over but the time was wrong. Once you correct the information, you can do the weather and file. You can also start on the trip planning page and load a trip either from a previous flight plan (on the left) or create a new one using the trip planning page. I'm going to load the pictures and then explain what I did when I get to my PC and edit it with comments. I also see they fixed bugs already on this release. If you build a trip using the flight plan icon, you can directly port it over to the trip planning section. Here is the blank trip planning screen before I hit the "file & brief" button. Once I hit "file & brief", it populates the trip planning section. This is where I ran into a problem. I hit the "file & brief" but didn't get the weather immediately and the time was dated when I did. Once you have the trip planning section filed out you can then file it with ATC, get weather, etc. Here is where it gets weird. You can also build your trip from the trip planning section and if you know the route, you can enter it or you can searched for previous ATC assigned routes. When you do it this way, you can hit the "activate" button on top and it will port over the flight plan to the flight planing page as well as put it on the main map. Not sure why they could haven't combined the two sections. If you have previous trips shown on the left side of the trip planning screen, you can click one and then hit the "activate" button on the right side to make it current in the flight planning section and on the main map. They took something that had a logical flow and made it more illogical. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Congrats Jon! So glad it all worked out for you. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is a great thread on shops people like that I may refer to in years to come - and I hope it keeps growing. It feels a tad more complicated to call out a shop where you had a bad experience, unless you were blatantly cheated, or were the victim of gross negligence or incompetence and can prove your assertion. But otherwise it's just another human relationship, where usually there are issues on both ends that make things go awry. With this in mind, I'd be curious to see a separate "don't be that customer" type thread from the multiple mechanics on here. I haven't been doing this very long, and so I doubt I've learned how to get the best out of the folks doing the hard work on my plane. Like anything else, I suspect getting to know the mechanics over years helps a lot. I don't want to divert this thread any further...

congrats as well. Hope to also be joining the owner's club in the not to distant future

Congratulation Jon! Bring that new bird to the Mooney get together and show her off. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17236-west-coast-mooney-2016-get-together/#comment-247477

I'm similar, normally dropping the gear a bit before pattern entry, hold 90mph from abeam downwind through base get down to 80 over the fence on final, let it bleed down a bit further up to the numbers. I'm a low time pilot, and dropping the gear makes it perform a lot more like my trainer in the pattern and certainly eased my transition into the plane right after my PPL- it also let me separate GUMPS from pattern flying mentally to keep workload down. Clearly there are others with more experience who manage speed and altitude very successfully and accurately over a much wider envelope in the pattern, gear up or down. I flew with someone the other day who was at 160mph abeam on downwind and 500 ft too high before slowing, dropping gear, descending in a tight turn forward slip, and nailing the landing- no big deal for him and it was good to know the plane can do this readily. I hope to get there someday.

I fly 90 on downwind, 80 on base, and try and be 70 over the numbers. Of course do whatever is most comfortable, but I do fit in with other aircraft more or less. Without gear or flaps I don't slow down much past gear speeds, and downwind goes by pretty fast at those speeds. Just sounds harder to me than it needs to be. But I could easily be the oddball in all this.

Pretty fantastic to see NOTHING but positives regarding experiences with shops providing Mooney Service. Gives me a warm Holiday feeling to read the kind words about those that maintain our birds.

Nope Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice work!! That's what nice about schools like that, the examiners are usually the owner or friends of the owner. The last time I tried to schedule an examiner for my SES the examiner wanted more than it cost to rent the airplane. My next kick will be to try and finish it at Pat Maggie's in HNL. Btw- his operation is for sale... enjoy, -Matt

I change my underwear whenever my underwear reach TBO. My underwear are rated to 2200hrs. Then I get my underwear overhauled.

FPR: Interior work: Aero Trim Bradley aviation (1 of mechanics owns a J) DAB: Daytona Aircraft Service - MSC, SM is on MS

It would be nice to have a simple spreadsheet: airport, state, name of shop,FBO without comments. For no other reason other to carry as a reference when traveling. Having a problem, quick scan of your list for a shop nearby (hence the reason for the state), direct to. That way you don't have an AOG where you are at the mercy of yahoo looking to take advantage of the situation.

Travel Express Aviation Maintenance ( http://www.teamaintenance.com/ ) out of DuPage Airport (KDPA). I can't say enough good things about this shop. They do excellent work and maintain a few Mooneys besides mine. They are a Cirrus and Lycoming Service Center. I highly recommend these guys to anyone that asks even though I am 100 yards from an MSC in my home base of (06C).

Guys, you are trying to dispel the concept that planes based in Florida are complete junk once they overnight here and should never be considered for purchase! Lets keep these well kept planes as our secret and let the rest of the believers continue to shop for their planes above Latitude 50 for extra corrosion protection.

I am a 75 F owner. If you can pull it off, I would entertain the F you showed. It has damage history, but if the repairs are documented well, I wouldn't fear it. That particular plane has some really nice mods to it. The one piece belly and ARI cowling are a major plus. Low time engine and new interior are even more great features. The avionics are dated but if functional, will get you what you are looking for. You better hurry up and grab it. I may buy it for parts and add all of that stuff to mine to complement my avionics (being posted for Dave because he loves my panel so much); Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don Maxwell (KGGG) is a top notch MSC as many here can attest to. Locally I use Twelvestone Aviation (KASG), owned by John Gearheart, who is honest and good at what he does although not a MSC he maintains several Mooneys. I've used Don for several annuals and John for the others as well as small items that pop up throughout the year.

One of nice things about SMX is that you can taxi right up to the back door of the Raddison. Lots of tie downs, and the hotel rates aren't bad for those who want to stay over a night. Food is not, in my opinion, spectacular, but that's not the reason for the get together. The terminal at SMX has several brands of rental cars for those who might want to stay over and explore the area. Frankly, I don't care where the meet will be held. Just decide soon, and let us know.

First, you should ensure your mixture control is actually making full travel to the full rich position. The knob in the cockpit should not contact the instrument panel, it should instead hit the stop at the carburetor. To change the WOT fuel flow you would have to change the main metering jet, or have your overhaul shop ream the jet to the greatest allowable size per the carburetor overhaul manual for the specific carburetor part number that corresponds to the O-360 A1D engine. How high are your CHTs in climb? More than likely your carburetor is correct, or that your fuel flow gauge is slightly off at the high fuel flow rates of WOT. If that is not the case, you're looking at removal of the carburetor and sending it to an overhaul facility for flow checking.

Second vote for Henry Weber. Not cheap but very honest and excellent work.

I would buy the nicest local Mooney you can afford.

Bender Aviation KCLW Clearwater Florida Clemens Wolf KZPH independent IA

To me, LASAR is the standard to match. Never "cheap", but Paul Lowen and his staff know Mooneys. And Dan in parts is simply amazing. I've been taking my Mooneys to LASAR for over 30 years.

Henry Weber at KLNS Lancaster ,PA a Mooney Service Center is great ,always great service at a fair price . No surprises ,a fantastic group of people doing a superb job. Highly recommend them

Another one from KVAY Bill Ohara from BP Air worked on my M20J and Ovation for 20 years

what a gorgeous aircraft....... I need to play the lottery again.

Hi Ron, very nice to see you here. Cirrus have the most sales mainly because of the shute. I think we can log that one as a fact. It's a bit like the old advert for sugarless chewinggum where the kid in the soapbox car which praises the said gum but eventually relents saying that it's the only one his dentist mother allows. In some other fora I post we have a very vocal Cirrus crowd and more than one has admitted to the fact that this is the only airplane the wife would step into because it has "the shute". And many who do own BRS equipped planes will say that they fly in conditions they would not consider in a SEP because of the shute. Maybe this has also lead so some accidents even, but I think we have to admit that Cirrus absolutely landed a very hard to dispute sales pitch with that shute and that this shute has actually saved quite a few lives since, also with other makes. So I am afraid, I am with Hank here. Any manufacturer who wishes to sell significant numbers today (what ever that means in today's climate) will have to consider the shute at least as an option. You being involved with the M10, I think you've heard this argument before but I'm afraid it might really have an impact on your sales if no BRS is possible. The question needs to be modified: Why aren't people buying NEW airplanes. The trade in used planes is going pretty good still today, even though prices have fallen considerably. But that already answers part of your question regarding new airplane sales. From my perspective: Money. New plane prices are totally outside the scope a "normal" guy can afford. These days you can buy quite nice homes in nice areas for $ 100-200k, so if a new 4 seater with mostly 1960ties technology costs more than 4-5 times that much, people will set their priorities. Also depreciation is horrendous, a new 800k airplane will loose 3/4 of it's value in the first 2-3 years. Looking at the Cirrus used market, people are now looking for G2 and G3 models at 200k, while a new one costs close to 800k. For me, the foremost reason why people fly 50 year old airframes happily and invest 2-3 times the hull value in instrument upgrades lies exactly therein: it is what they can afford and make their own. The number of folks who can buy a 100k used plane is a huge factor higher than those who will buy new despite knowing that they will loose massive money doing so. Add to that while the economy is not doing so bad at all, psychologically speaking the world is in a depression at least since 2008. Prices of almost everything has fallen dramatically, again, look at the housing market. Today you can get a previously multi million dollar home for maybe 200-300k. I've seen such places in Florida and had to rub my eyes. (that trend is opposite in Europe, btw, at least where I live, properties have risen up to 300% since 2001, as space runs out to build new ones, also there the used market is way stronger than the new market). Generally, prices are falling, particularly in the entry segment for cars, houses and other goods. Only airplanes seem to have risen in price. That is a countermovement which is mainly due to high certification cost (which is why experimentals take off the way they do), high OEM equipment cost due to monopolies and high labour cost as opposed to mass products like cars. In small GA, with the class of airplane an Ovation, Acclaim, SR22, C400 e.t.c. are, in comparison to the auto market ALL our planes are in the class of Lamborghini or Ferrari: hand made, low volume, high price. Now imagine what the auto market would look like if that was the case there. You'd see Cuban conditions everywhere which is a classic car nut's paradise but a salesman's nightmare. I do have high hopes for the M10 for several reasons. If the price is right, I think the M10J can be a real alternative for the 1-2 person traveller and finally a replacement for the Vintage Mooneys and the 201, a true entry level travel machine. Secondly, the engine is a perfect choice, at least for Europe. Jet A1 is cheaper and much more available than Avgas in many places. And finally, the typical Mooney performance: 160kts with a Diesel is unheard of so far, so is 1000 NM range. What I'd like to see is a even more "entry level" version of the M10 with conventional cockpit, possibly with a Aspen/GTN/Avidyne version with otherwise conventional instrumentation if that could lower the price towards the G1000 machine even more. I'd suggest the same for the Ovation and Acclaim btw, if it makes a noticable dent in the price. Even if most people WILL buy the G1000 eventually, it might look good to have something "cheaper" to draw people in. Cirrus does this with the SR20, which basically doesn't sell at all but still is the "cheaper" model to lure folks into the sales room. But if a Aspen/Avidyne or GTN equipped airframe could chip off 100k of the final sales price of a new plane, it might give you an edge over others. And please do reconsider a BRS system for the M10. I think many would be willing to even forego the 3rd seat in the J, in the T there should be space enough as it is. Again, maybe not many folks will actually buy it but it might surprise you. Sorry, it's been a longer post and gone beyond the subject of the thread, but I am really glad to see you here Ron. And btw, if you really get the M10 in the air before the new year, it will make my year Best regards Urs Wildermuth M20C, 1965, HB-DWC

Communication is key here, Mark. Focus on being brief and clear. A long annual is a week. A really long annual kills off two flying weekends. An expensive annual is 2AMUS a really expensive annual is more like 4AMUs (based on my income experience) Getting a tank stripped and resealed is not a usual annual experience. They would have to communicate the need for this. Tell you what is involved before you agreed to get it done. Work on making your points clear here. This will help you with making your points clear with the shop. See what I mean? Best regards, -a-