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#1 Lood

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:16 PM

I've tried JPI support a couple of times, but unfortunately I don't have much luck in determining which of their engine analyzers are approved as primary indicator and what the price would be when I trade my EDM700 in on such a primary instrument. So, I though someone here might know.


I basically want to know whether any of the JPI range, except the EDM900/930, are approved as primary instrument to indicate oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel quantity, amps/volts and CHT. I want to replace the cluster gauge in my Mooney with digital. I already have an EDM700 with FF, so I basically only need the approved head, together with the few probes that I don't have currently installed.



#2 Oscar Avalle

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

I just upgraded my 700 to an 730. I asked the same question and the answer was that only the 930 was approved as primary instrument. I received US$ 1000 for my 700, in exchange for the 730. Hope it helps.


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#3 jlunseth

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:08 PM

The model you want would be the 711.  The price might be dictated by how many functions you want it to be primary for, its been awhile and I don't remember, sorry.  I know it can be primary for MP and RPM, plus some other things.


I may be wrong, but I don't think any of the square faced units that mount in a round instrument hole are capable of being primary for anything except maybe the 900.  JPI has two websites, and if you will go to http://www.jpitech.com you will find their price list.  As I recall, it is not complete, but some products are listed by whether they are primary or not.  Remember, primary means they have to be STC'd as primary, not just TSO'd for installation in an aircraft. 


Oscar, I think whoever told you the 930 is the only primary was wrong.  I had a 711 in my plane four years ago, primary for RPM and MP (I did a panel upgrade project and now have a 930), and the 711 is on their 2012 price  list.



#4 Sabremech

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:36 PM

The issue is the fuel quantity. You can replace your MP, RPM, etc with a TSO'd or FAA-PMA gauge with out any issues. It's my understanding that the 930 is the only unit that can be installed in your aircraft and be the primary instrument for fuel quantity and everything else.


.



#5 Txbyker

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:29 PM

I just traded in my 700 for the 730.  You need to check to make sure your harness is compatible but for mine it was essentially plug n play.  I had an existing Shadin fuel flow so I bought the harness kit for the EDM730 to hook up to my fuel flow transducer and did away with the Shadin.  I did not hook up MP or RPM as that was pricey.


Shadin was about $1200 after swap 700 for 730. Fuel harness $120 to connect to the transducer. Install labor $500.


You can get all of the readings you want on the 730 but I dont know if it is approved over the analog gauges.  I still have redundancy and triple in some cases like fuel.



#6 bnicolette

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:40 PM


Quote: txbyker


You can get all of the readings you want on the 730 but I dont know if it is approved over the analog gauges. 




I had the 830 installed in mine when I first bought the airplane.  Same thing as the 730 only it came with all the accessories/components.  It is not approved as a replacement for our analog gauges yet, but rumor has it that they are working on that?  I love my JPI and where I have it mounted it gets my attention very quickly when something goes outside one of the set parameters.  I lost my alternator on my last flight during climbout and I saw the BAT flashing at me on the JPI right away.  My annunciator panel was also flashing at me but I saw the JPI first.



#7 jlunseth

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 03:06 PM


Quote: Sabremech


The issue is the fuel quantity. You can replace your MP, RPM, etc with a TSO'd or FAA-PMA gauge with out any issues. It's my understanding that the 930 is the only unit that can be installed in your aircraft and be the primary instrument for fuel quantity and everything else.


.




 Wait, whoa, no, that is not accurate.  Mooneys are certified under the original Type Certificate, plus a Supplemental Type Certificate for each model and/or serial number range.  The Type Certificate/STC is specific down to the make, model and part number of the components that are required equipment.  A new instrument that is TSO'd and is the same make and model as the replaced instrument, can be installed to effect a repair.  However, the required equipment instruments cannot be substituted for with something else, unless the substitute is STC'd.  Manufacturers of aftermarket equipment such as JPI need to get an STC that lists the specific makes and models of aircraft into which the aftermarket equipment can be installed in place of required equipment.


http://www.airweb.fa.../2A3 Rev 52.pdf


I warn you, it is a long document and convoluted reading.


Most panel instrumentation for engine functions in a Mooney are required equipment.  In my aircraft, which is a turbo (231), this includes TIT, RPM, MP, Oil Press., Oil Temp., the factory EGT and CHT, and yes fuel quantity and I believe fuel flow.  Probably some others I have not remembered.  None of these can simply be replaced by a TSO'd instrument that is not listed on the Mooney Type Certificate, unless the instrument is STC'd.  You could not, for example, take out your MP and RPM gauges, and stick in a couple of replacements of a different make and model that are not STC'd, because the aircraft would not then conform to its Type Certificate.


A major difference is that instruments that are within the Type Certificate generallly are part of a system, that includes things such as a redundant readout, or a warning light that tells if the instrument is malfunctioning.  To be STC'd, substitute equipment needs to have proven redundancy/warning systems, and not just the instrument function served by the instrument substituted for.  The 930, as an example, has a Remote Alert Display, a small digital backup readout that must be installed with the 930 in order for the 930 to be primary for engine functions.



#8 Sabremech

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 09:50 PM

Let me clarify, in most cases your replacement instruments need to be STC'd, but that is not always the case. I'm doing a field approval with an FAA-PMA six pack instrument cluster into my Mooney. None of these gauges are STC'd. So your statement is only half correct. I don't want to spend $6500 on a JPI 930 to replace my gauges as the value just isn't in my airplane to do it. So, in my case I'm doing the field approval for a Mitchell 6 pack cluster to replace my original 6 pack for $900. I may take it a step further and get an STC for the installation in Pre J Mooney's so other operators have a less expensive alternative to replace old out dated instruments.


I'm in the business of manufacturing FAA-PMA parts and STC's, so I'm quite familiar with the requirements of the TCDS.



#9 PilotDerek

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:08 PM

The EDM 900 is STC'd to replace all engine instruments including l & r fuel quantity. It costs the same as tne 930 but it is the size of the 830. It is on my wish list. Anyone have one installed yet?



#10 M20F

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:06 PM


Quote: Lood


 I don't have much luck in determining which of their engine analyzers are approved as primary indicator 




For ZA I don't think you are going to get a good answer on this forum you might want to try with AOPA ZA.



#11 Lood

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:32 AM


Quote: M20F



Quote: Lood


 I don't have much luck in determining which of their engine analyzers are approved as primary indicator 




For ZA I don't think you are going to get a good answer on this forum you might want to try with AOPA ZA.




 


Our SACAA, the equavilent of your FAA, copy all and everything that the FAA does in terms of certification, rules and regulations regarding type certified airplanes. Typical African, they only add some more red tape and bull dust, but that's another story. Regarding instruments, STC's and certification issues, if it is allowed by the FAA, it will be allowed here. I'll take a look at the 711 and I'm not too adament about having fuel level or RPM/MP indication. The fuel flow function on the EDM together with my calibrated dipstick does a far better job than the cluster fuel gauges in any way and I never bother with them. To me, they're like a Cessna door handle - just there because it needs to be there, but it does not necesarily work.Tongue out



#12 Lood

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:10 AM

Don't know whether I'm stupid or what, but I can't find anything on the EDM711 on the JPI website. It is listed with Spruce, but not even documentation on it with JPI?



#13 jlunseth

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:05 AM

Go to www.jpitech.com, not jpinstruments.com.  Click on Price List right column.   Scroll to SINGLE Engine EDM-700/800.  Second to last bullet point.  Can't help more, gone flying.


PS it says oil and TIT, but they did othersfor me.  Call them.


 


 



#14 Cruiser

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:11 AM

Is this what you are looking for?   



Section 13 - EDM-711 Primary Alarm Display



 


The EDM-711—There are 3 primary functions available to your EDM-700/800 CHT, OIL and TIT. When an EDM-700-800 has primary functions it is called an EDM-711. A Remote alarm lamp is supplied that will function even when the primary display fails. Each lamp is a dual lamp Red/Yellow. The lamp will light when the indicated temperature exceeds alarm limit. The limits for these alarms and warnings are preset by the factory for your type of aircraft and can only be changed at the factory. The yellow warnings are set as follows: CHT 45°F below redline, OIL 25°F below redline, and TIT 100°F below redline. Tapping STEP will extinguish the flashing digital display but the remote yellow/red warning indication cannot be extinguished. In the procedure in the next section to change the alarm limits, you will not be able to change the limits for CHT, OIL or TIT. 



 


http://www.jpitech.c...REV W 03-07.pdf




#15 Lood

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:16 AM

OK, I got it. Thanks to all.



#16 scottfromiowa

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:33 AM

I went a separate route.  I replaced ALL except fuel quantity with EI gauges.  I then had a Insight G3 installed giving primary for Exhaust and Cylinder Temp and redundancy in MP/Tach/Voltage/Oil/Fuel Flow with gauge on pilot side of panel.  Nice to cross check with the EI Primary gauges.  My price with redundancy was in line with the certified flat screen JPI for all gauges.  I did a little at a time (when on sale etc.) to save $.  The lean feature of the G3 is Very good and user friendly.  Just another way to upgrade with certified primary STC'd solution.



#17 fantom

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:47 PM


Quote: PilotDerek


The EDM 900 is STC'd to replace all engine instruments including l & r fuel quantity. It costs the same as tne 930 but it is the size of the 830. It is on my wish list. Anyone have one installed yet?




Not yet....but soon!


http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_900_3.html






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