Poor stall instruction plaguing GA?

[201er]

I don't know about you guys but I feel jipped in all my primary and even recurrent/advanced training particularly when it comes to stalls. I'm not an instructor but I feel like the entire concept of stalls is being taught in a terrible way. Between maybe 7 instructors, I got the same impression of their method for training stalls to be about the same so I'm guessing teaching it this way is standard practice. Furthermore, the way all DPE's test for it is similar to how instructors teach it so it seems like this is the way the entire system wants you to experience stalls.

 

The way it goes is you go up to a high altitude and set yourself up to be straight and level (ha, how would a stall from that orientation ever occur in the first place?), probably tracking a heading. Then the instructor will tell you (after doing clearing turns, not important to the discussion) to set up for a landing configuration and in the process raise the nose to the limit so that the airplane stalls. Then they want you to wait till the stall occurs and the airplane is pointing straight down at the ground and then recover. For a power-on stall, they have you go from straight/level at low power to a full power climb in the most absurd pitch up where you are nearly laying on your back and continue holding that until it stalls and the nose drops. If you "wimp out" and stop pulling back before the stall occurs, they make you do it again and wait till the stall really happens.

 

Yet in all my flying (albeit a mere 800 hours, but enough to observe some consistencies), I cannot recall a single time that I was near stall that ever looked anything like those instructed scenarios. The times I've had the stall horn going off unexpectedly or observed my AOA indicator to show me to be far closer to stall than expected were entirely different! Worst of all, the situations that put me close to stalling were never discussed and I did not figure out what I did wrong until later on. I'd say that I was sooner lucky not having stalled in those circumstances in my ignorant state and that I have learned since. I would not say that my "training" had adequately prepared me to deal with those. The only stalls I was taught to recover from were the ones intentionally created and with the nose pointing at the ground.

 

My first encounters with unforecast stalls were in gliders. I was circling fairly slow (at minimum sink speed) trying to work a thermal. This was ok until I attempted to further steepen up the bank angle. Although I continued to maintain what was considered the appropriate airspeed for the task, the increased angle of attack resultant on an excessively steep bank angle without increase in airspeed caused me to enter an incipient spin. I was plenty high and recovered effortlessly but this had to happen several times until I caught on. I blame this situation on the failure of my glider instructor to teach me that you can induce a stall by increasing bank angle despite maintaining a previously acceptable airspeed. Whenever we practiced steep turns we were already and intentionally set up for a steep turn by flying a higher airspeed. We never practiced flying shallow turns and then changing them into a steep turn. Thus I had never made the connection of progressively increasing airspeed in the turn as you increase the bank angle. This was an extremely valuable lesson I figured out on my own which I will get back to for base/final turns in airplanes.

 

My next memorable near-stall scenario is when I was a freshly minted private pilot (just checked my logbook, 17 hours into it) and I even https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-OXuVJQj8U. The worst thing is that I had NO IDEA what happened at the time and not till I got my Mooney with AOA indicator that I was able to look back on that situation to fully understand what I had done wrong! The fact that I had gone on flying 2 more years until I became full aware of this mistake is appalling. None of my flight instruction adequately prepared me for this very obvious scenario. I had flown the skyhawk only with 1 or 2 on board. Now I was a hotshot PP and wanted to take everyone on a scenic flight of NY. This was my first time filling all the seats. I was meticulous to check the W&B, runway lengths, fuel, etc. What I did not remotely think about or check was the appropriate climb speed. I took off pretty much the same way I always take off and fly the standard Vx/Vy speeds I was always taught to fly: 55/65. You may not hear it in my youtube video but I clearly remember (and on the unedited footage can see/hear it) the stall warning coming on and off. While this was all going on, I could not fathom why the stupid buzzer was going off when I was doing a pretty spiffy job holding 55 like I was taught. When it would go off, luckily I had the sense to lower the nose a little but then like an idiot would pull back into that same near-stall attitude again. It just did not dawn on me then or for another 2 years that the additional weight (and possibly more rearward CG) were causing me to fly at an excessive AOA regardless of my indicated airspeed. What made things even worse was that I was trying to outclimb the hill ahead on that hot August day so. Unaccustomed to flying with the additional weight, I was desperately trying to maintain Vx and was too poorly trained to realize that I was behind the power curve and that putting the nose further down would actually make me climb better! It was a snowballing effect and I was lucky to have enough power and clearance to make it through. I can imagine in a more challenging situation (a certain Mooney pilot comes to mind) causing this to snowball into a full blown departure stall. I continue to harbor some residual shame in that situations and feel that I let my passengers down. Not because I was close to a stall. But because I was clueless of the cause and how I should have dealt with it (and not realizing it for a long time since). I take full responsibility but I blame my ignorance on poor stall instruction that only focused on making actual stalls.

 

Finally my 3rd terrifying near-stall encounter was on a right downwind to base turn on my very first Mooney flight checkout. I was flying a hair on the slow side but within acceptable margins. But as I steepened up the downwind to base turn, the AOA started beeping and the instructor informed me of the situation. I was going pretty fast so I couldn't imagine a stall being possible. But turning too steep with gear/flaps can induce one. I have since watched the AOA in these kinds of turns and realized how quickly your above-stall margin diminishes as you continue to steepen a turn without increasing airspeed. We are always being taught to keep airspeed constant. Yet when you are increasing bank angle in a takeoff/landing configuration, you must increase airspeed by putting the nose down. Now I occasionally take advantage of this sort of situation by using an excessively steep base/final turn to lose altitude on tight patterns if I'm too high. But I first put the nose way down and then turn steeply (while minding the AOA indicator). This kills a ton of altitude very quickly and helps me re-establish a proper glidepath. Before you criticize me for being above glidepath and cramming my pattern, mind you I'm doing this at Linden where we have some very confined airspace with the 5 mile Newark finals overlapping our base leg.

 

I've had a handful more situations but with my trusted AOA in the Mooney, I've been able to solve the situations before they ever played out into a memorable one. With my extended range tanks I am constantly going between flying at vastly differing weight configurations so knowing the exact airspeed based on the fuel/weight configuration at that moment is too complicated. But with the AOA, it always sets me up for flying the safe angle of attack to ensure proper stall margin and minimal airspeed. I can't recommend an AOA enough. At this point I would sooner recommend one than an Ipad, Dynon, or any other popular safety gizmo that is being perpetuated. Ipad may have saved me from busting airspace, AOA saved me from busting my airplane and ass.

 

 

My humble suggestion for teaching stalls to future generations (and possibly brushing up for already rated pilots) would be to demonstrate near-stall scenarios to the student by an expert instructor. Simply talking about them isn't sufficient (both based on my shared experiences and the statistics). Reading about it and discussing it often don't help the newbie student make the full connection. For me, having experienced these stall scenarios has been a far greater learning experience than any book or discussion. I just wish they were demonstrated to me in training rather than when I ignorantly made them inadvertently. Greater safety would have certainly been assured.

 

An angle of attack indicator is a great tool for showing what happens to the actual AOA in a steep turn or when the plane is heavy. Despite turning at 90kts, the AOA dips quite low. Even without an AOA, expertly putting the plane into situations where the stall warning goes off but without actually stalling would serve a similar illustration. Thus some good examples of things to demonstrate might include:

 

-Doing too steep of a base-final turn (fine do it at altitude simulated so that we're not getting unnecessary accidents during demonstrations).

-Throw some extra students in the backseat of that skyhawk and takeoff heavy (demonstrate what an ACTUAL imminent departure stall feels like)

-Put a load of ballast in the baggage compartment and show what imminent stalls because of aft CG look like

-Demonstrate flap related stalls by turning with full flaps or a departure stall with flaps

 

In none of these demonstrations is at actually necessary to stall the plane and allow the nose to drop. Instead, get the plane there, show the stall horn going off, hand it back to the student and allow them to fix it (practice at altitude). I think the failure of the current stall teaching system is that all it teaches students is how to stall a plane and then how to recover a plane that you intentionally stalled. I don't see any value whatsoever in performing more than a handful of actual stalls just to make the student less panicked should they find themselves in that state. From that point forward, all emphasis should be on pre-stall awareness and pre-stall recovery. Why waste precious flying dollars practicing the actual stall scenario so much when it's not something you ever [should] see in real flying?

 

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your discussion, particularly from instructors.

[RocketAviator]

Wow today is the day of I COULD NOT AGREE MORE and 201er you win the prize with this post in my humble opinion!  I just had an AOA installed in my Rocket with the new panel and absolutely think it is a great instrument.  Having now flown with one like you with a wide range of weights I think every plane should have one and every plane I own will have one!... Except the Saratoga which I am now trying to sell!  Besides the cost of an AOA is one of the best value instruments out there!

 

Well said,

Fly safe,

Rocket On!  

[DonMuncy]

Which AOA indicators did you guys install. What was the cost and installation cost. What is your recommendation as to which one to get.

[lamont337]

This has definitely been a hot topic with the FAA lately as they (and a few other 3 & 4 letter organizations) push to decrease fatalities and accidents in GA. Check out the two articles below.

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/going-direct/new-angles-aoa

 

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=13672

 

From the second link:

 

"The FAA has streamlined the approval of angle of attack indicators for GA aircraft and is working to promote the retrofit of the existing fleet. Angle of attack indicators provide the pilot with a visual aid to prevent Loss of Control of the aircraft in the critical phases of flight. Previously, cost and complexity of indicators limited their use to the military and commercial aircraft. The FAA is also streamlining the certification and installation of inflatable restraints (air bags)with the goal of making all GA aircraft eligible for installation."

[aviatoreb]

Hi 201er, I read this post with great interest - I have had an AOA "next on my list" for like a year and actually 2 weeks ago I called a nearby avionics shop to begin the process of pricing the cost of install complete.  I couldn't agree with you more. It looks like I will likely do it at the end of June while I am away. Well timed post for me.

[Jeev]

Good post... Found this solution and its on my list of upgrades. I figure about $2,500 for purchase and install? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoaprofessional.php?clickkey=5477

[scottfromiowa]

Good post... Found this solution and its on my list of upgrades. I figure about $2,500 for purchase and install? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoaprofessional.php?clickkey=5477

Great post. AOA or know what causes and steer/pull clear of the situations...

[RocketAviator]

Which AOA indicators did you guys install. What was the cost and installation cost. What is your recommendation as to which one to get.

 

Don,

I installed the Alpha http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/  Part #:  DSTR-AOA-8000K  Kit @ $1498 + $1200 install however I also went with the heated prob.which required some electrial wiring and additional circuit breaker installation.  There are others, I liked both the product and the people I talked to when trying to make a decision.

 

As 201er stated and I feel the real safety value from the AOA comes from AOA during a bank or a climb in what I will say is circumstances that have varying influences on the angle of attack by which the airplane flies or doesn't fly at!

 

​While I did not go with but studied closely there are very low cost AOA options basically they are nothing more than a pressure differential gauge / sensor in one form or another.  With the value of the plane and the added features of the LED linear display & heated prob I did not see any sense in the home built version....  

 

Due to another post I thought I needed to add this comment:

While there are vane type which mine is not my AOA is also not an Air Speed Sensor it is a differential pressure sensor.  

 

Absolutely great and very useful instrument especially if are like me you care large weight ranges

 

Fly safe,

Rocket On! 

[bnicolette]

Mike, what a great post and I couldn't agree more. 

 

However, to say that you had your private license and were not aware that increasing bank increases "stall speed" is hard to fathom.   I understand that your instructors probably didn't demonstrate this for you and unfortunately I know that I didn't demonstrate it for my students (although I know we talked about it).  When I was actively instructing trying to build time, I knew just barely more than the students I was training.  It's just how our system is set up and the flight instructor position is the bottom feeder of the aviation industry.  There are exceptions obviously and there are good high time instructors out there.  I am just speaking to the "norm".

 

I whole heartedly agree that this is an area that needs addressed though and also agree that an AOA indicator would be a valuable addition to the cockpit especially for those that are looking to do max performance maneuvers.  Otherwise, just add a few knots for mom and the kids and all will be well (normal maneuvering).

 

Even with an AOA indicator the stall spin accidents still happen even at the professional level.  The company I used to work (and still contract for) lost a Lear 35 in Truckee, CA in 2005.  Again, it was a base to final turn that went bad.  There were other issues at work and the Lear 35 is very unforgiving.  They were turning base to final and I guarantee that as they were doing that they added full flaps.  If you don't immediately add power when selecting full flaps you are about to stall the airplane.  Add to this that they were in a tight turn and tragedy ensued.  The Lear 35 also has a stick shaker and pusher (that is tied to the AOA) but still they had no time to recover.

 

So I guess my point is that even with an AOA that will beep at you, if you get distracted and aren't paying attention it is no guaranteed life saver either.  How many folks have landed gear up all the while the aural warning was blaring in the background?

 

 

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20051228-0

[Skywarrior]

Just a note: I have read many people writing, "stall speed/likelihood increases as bank angle increases."

 

Just so everybody is clear, 'bank angle', alone, does not cause this.

 

It is the concomitant 'pull' on the yoke, required to keep the nose level, that causes the increase in AOA during a turn.

 

There... I feel better.  

[M016576]

Just a note: I have read many people writing, "stall speed/likelihood increases as bank angle increases."

Just so everybody is clear, 'bank angle', alone, does not cause this.

It is the concomitant 'pull' on the yoke, required to keep the nose level, that causes the increase in AOA during a turn.

There... I feel better.

Technically it's just bank angle for a given rate of descent (or ascent). If you don't keep the rate of descent constant between the two comparisons, then it's an apples to oranges situation. But yes... The airfoil doesn't care that its "tilted" relative to the horizon... But in order to keep the lift vector the same, you must apply more back stick pressure, which increases the angle of attack, which summarily brings you closer to critical (stalling) AOA.

We used to practice approach turn stalls in Navy flight school. Good training, but the chances of entering a spin increase slightly over a wings level stall.

You all know my position on AOA indicators. I've been flamed by a few of the pilots on this board for my position on the subject. I still believe they are the only way to precisely control your aircraft throughout the entire envelope of flight (and especially through the approach and landing). Everything else is just an estimation.

It's next on my list of things to install.

[davidsguerra]

i had an instructor do hands off power off stalls and recovery, spins, and full power on stalls in a T-41 with me. I wish everyone could have the same training.

[N9660M]

201er, think the FAA tends to agree with you.  Last year the accelerated stall was added to the commercial PTS. 

 

Basically, starting at an altitude that allows recovery no lower than 3000 AGL, slow the airplane down and trim for straight and level flight at Vx.  Then roll into a 45 degree bank and apply back pressure to maintain altitude.  If done correctly, you'll get the buffet almost immediately at or very near your entry speed.  You've just stalled by increasing the wing's G-loading rather than by allowing airspeed to bleed off to an unaccelerated stall speed, as is typical with power-off and power-on stall training.

 

I remember doing these when I was working on my PPL back in the mid-80s.  I may be wrong, but I think they were part of the private PTS back.

 

Take care - Jim    

[bnicolette]

i had an instructor do hands off power off stalls and recovery, spins, and full power on stalls in a T-41 with me. I wish everyone could have the same training.

 

Right On David.  It's just not practical though to get some students to want to do this sort of thing.  I always professed that I never really gained my confidence in an airplane until I went through a 20 hour aerobatic course.  That's a bit drastic but wow what a difference it made in me and my "stick & rudder" skills.

 

I always demonstrated a spin for my students (if they were comfortable with it as I sure didn't want to scare them off) and I think it was beneficial.  But nothing takes the place of actually putting the plane through it's paces with you at the controls.

[Cris]

Just to add my two cents remember as Brett pointed out that an aircraft WILL stall at any angle and at any airspeed. This is basic airmanship taught within the first few hours of flight. Maintaining a constant airspeed as bank angle increases will eventually result in a stall. Think accelerated stall. Maintaining wings level as airspeed drops does the same. The really big disaster in a Mooney is when someone decides to do straight and level stalls with their feet lightly on the pedals as opposed to making certain that the ball is centered. That Mooney will snap roll in a heart beat and you will be in a two turn spin in which you best know how to exit. Since spin training is a thing of the past many pilots need to understand that on a base to final (as Mike says) lower the nose to increase airspeed and do not touch flaps until wings level all the while making certain the ball is centered for coordinated flight. One final point take a few minutes with your POH and look at how stall speed increases as bank angle increases and weight increases and flaps increase. It's quite revealing. In my Screamin' Eagle at 3000 lbs there is almost a 30 knot difference between straight and level and 60 degree bank angle as in an overshoot from base to final. The only saving grace for many of us is that we fly light as I am reasonably certain few if any adds 30 knots to their airspeed. So go get those AOA's or go back to basics.

[201er]

However, to say that you had your private license and were not aware that increasing bank increases "stall speed" is hard to fathom.   I understand that your instructors probably didn't demonstrate this for you and unfortunately I know that I didn't demonstrate it for my students (although I know we talked about it). 

Brett, I think I stated this earlier. I'm sure I had the "book knowledge" and could spit back whatever I heard for the oral. However (especially as a beginner), if I was told something I hadn't tried, it just didn't sink in. There was so much to learn and do. I am really disappointed that I was taught "how to" stall an airplane instead of "how not to stall in the first place" or at least develop understanding of an impending stall. Since I never stalled below a certain speed with me and instructor onboard, it made no sense to me in the plane at that time why it was trying to stall at an otherwise correct speed. I was unable to correlate the book knowledge with the situation because I had never previously seen it in action. The AOA indicator in my Mooney dancing around in turns and such really made me aware of what I had been blind to all that time.

 

I distinctly remember the examiner on my pp glider test telling me that the stall I did was too wimpy and that he wanted me to try it again and let it really stall. What the heck is that teaching us? He should have been thrilled that I was reluctant to get into one and was recovering the moment it began to occur. I keep reading that the FAA agrees and that the FAA lists this as a problem area. But I'm not actually seeing anything being done about it.

[carusoam]

Are we covering the same topic in two different threads at the same time?

Or did I lose my post?

-a-

Thanks Brett... At least my answer matches my flight instructor's, in the other thread...(mostly)...

-a-

[Marauder]

201er, think the FAA tends to agree with you. Last year the accelerated stall was added to the commercial PTS. Basically, starting at an altitude that allows recovery no lower than 3000 AGL, slow the airplane down and trim for straight and level flight at Vx. Then roll into a 45 degree bank and apply back pressure to maintain altitude. If done correctly, you'll get the buffet almost immediately at or very near your entry speed. You've just stalled by increasing the wing's G-loading rather than by allowing airspeed to bleed off to an unaccelerated stall speed, as is typical with power-off and power-on stall training. I remember doing these when I was working on my PPL back in the mid-80s. I may be wrong, but I think they were part of the private PTS back. Take care - Jim

There definitely was some sort of change in the PPL requirements over time. Like Jim, I remember doing a ton of actual stall work ranging from uncoordinated power off (like a bad base to final turn) to accelerated stalls from various configurations. Somewhere along the line I believe this became "stall awareness" more than actually doing the tough maneuver.

[Greg]

A couple weeks ago I purposely took the C172 out to explore exactly what 201er is talking about.  I wanted to experience that base to final stall spin that has been the hot topic lately.   I took my aerobatic instuctor with me - he's used to aiming the pointed end straight at the ground.  We stalled and worked to enter spins (full spins) from different attitudes and configurations.  It was one of the best flight lessons I've ever had and I'm sure my students will benefit from it.  I think what 201er is saying needs to be talked about - hats off to him.  Go out and do some more experimenting but take a qualified instructor with you.  Not all instructors are qualified to teach aerobatics.

[201er]

Something I've discovered, and this kind of goes back to my disappointment with all stall instruction I ever received (or more importantly didn't receive) is that real stalls look nothing like practiced stalls. Practiced stalls start in straight and level flight and just pull back. This always felt silly cause you have to pull back a heck of a lot and it's obvious the stall is coming.

 

When you do a turning stall (or just discover you were closer to one than you thought thanks to your AOA), it is usually induced from banking steeper rather than pulling the nose up high. Although you are pulling back during the turn, your pitch attitude stays the same (since you are trying to maintain airspeed) so you aren't aware of it like you are in the straight ahead practice stall.

 

I have done a few turning stalls with an instructor and even on my flight test. But they were NOTHING like real turning stalls. Basically I was just told to turn and pull back during the turn till it stalls. I don't think anybody does this. It makes no sense to and it's absolutely obvious you'll make yourself stall that way. What's less obvious is that in a 40 degree bank at gross weight, you'll stall at 66 knots which is easily more than normal touchdown speed! 1.3Vso would require 86 knots during the turn.

 

I think the reason a lot of pilots get away with flying unaware of their AOA is because they pick general numbers that should work in any configuration (and generally erring on the side of being too fast... see all landing trouble threads). They fly 100kts on downwind, 90 on base, 80 on final, 70 on short final. That 90 knots on base makes that 40 degree turn work out. But what if we inadvertently went to 60 degrees? 83 knots would be the stall speed. That is cutting it mighty close. 1.3Vso would require 108 knots!!! That's more than you'd be flying in that stage of the pattern.

 

BTW, another thing I've noticed. The airspeed indicator appears to lag during takeoff. Has anyone else noticed this? After I rotate and begin to climb, it may say 80 knots. However, the climb rate isn't appropriate for 80 knots. Nor is the angle of attack. The angle of attack indicator shows me being slower than this. But as the plan accelerates, the angle of attack and climb rate will improve all while maintaining 80 knots indicated. I don't really know how to explain this situation better but I've noticed it regularly and this is why I sooner trust the AOA shortly after takeoff than the ASI to keep me from hitting a departure stall.

[bnicolette]

Greg,

Were you successful in getting the 172 to spin? Just curious.

Jim

 

Jim as you probably already know from your question the 172 does not like to spin (At least our 3 didn't).  I had to hold spin entry controls in the entire time or it would immediately come out of the spin and start a spiral.  One of our students had a 150 that he lent us for the spin training and it loved to spin.  :-)

[benpilot]

 

This is an excellent topic that deserves more attention paid to in flight training. I've done a fair amount of stalls and slow flights and agree. Fortunately the Cessna 172 is hard to stall compared to other aircraft. I do remember the tip last week an experienced Mooney pilot gave me on my demo flight in the wicked fast Rocket to center that ball on the TC.

[Marauder]

BTW, another thing I've noticed. The airspeed indicator appears to lag during takeoff. Has anyone else noticed this? After I rotate and begin to climb, it may say 80 knots. However, the climb rate isn't appropriate for 80 knots. Nor is the angle of attack. The angle of attack indicator shows me being slower than this. But as the plan accelerates, the angle of attack and climb rate will improve all while maintaining 80 knots indicated. I don't really know how to explain this situation better but I've noticed it regularly and this is why I sooner trust the AOA shortly after takeoff than the ASI to keep me from hitting a departure stall.

Mike -- I have the airspeed digital tape on the Aspen to compare to the mechanical ASI. They match very closely once the needle comes off of the peg on the ASI and the Aspen starts reporting (over 20 knots). You may be dealing with a problem with your ASI or perhaps something going on with your pitot system.

[midlifeflyer]

I haven't come across the 7 instructors 201er  talks about, but this is definitely a hot topic with the FAA. I've been asked to lead an FAA-sponsored  CFI discussion in the Raleigh area on stall instruction. @201er, may I use your post as a lead-in to the topic?

 

I know what you are talking about. I always do a cross-controlled stall demonstration for my primary students and do at least one "unusual" stall at a flight review of someone who has never done them. NO. 1 comment on the cross-controlled stall: "I never realized the planr could stall with the nose so low."

[201er]

Sure, you can use my post. It's taken me many years of improvement to come to terms with these issues but I feel responsible and educated enough at this point to make my mistakes public so others may learn from them. Like I previously stated, without the extensive experience I have gained since, I could not have even have begun to understand my original mistakes.

 

Lots of instructors/books "talk" about stalls. But few enough actually make it happen. I hope you can mention that the most disappointing thing I found was in retrospect was that I was only taught 2 stalls and that they are the ones that don't really happen. Straight and level power off and power on. Turning stall were just taught to me as a coordinated turn where you pull back the same way as in the straight and level. They were not bank angle induced so I did not learn that element. I was never taught to fly with varying weights so I was utterly unprepared to go full gross and increase my minimal speed. I'm sure I was "told" that stall speed goes up. But I was never demonstrated or taught to fly a higher airspeed on climb/approach with that added weight. It's too big a jump for an inexperienced pilot to make.

 

The feeling I got from stall instruction was that they wanted to teach me how to stall. Instructors were always encouraging me to stall harder and let them see the stall prior to recovery. This has been the most useless skill I have been taught. I have never once seen the nose drop like that in real near-stall/stall scenarios. Things have always been far more subtle and it was my awareness of the prestall condition and prestall recovery that saved the day. But it's something I discovered on my own since. My instruction may have indirectly prepared me for it, but it could have more directly prepared me for it by not wasting so much time making me do the same pointless straight ahead intentional stalls over and over again. All my instructors were big on stalls. Just not the right ones and not in the right way. That's what I've learned in 8 years of flying.