Strange Hold

[AndyFromCB]

So I went up today to shoot some approaches before the icing got here. Managed to get four in. Flew from my base in KCBF to KLNK because they had lower weather down there. On my second approach, GPS runway 14:

http://155.178.201.1...10/00232R14.PDF

I'm heading towards SILOY and then get this instruction:

Hold at SILOY at 3000.

No directions, no instructions, no EFC time, no leg length, etc.

The radio got too busy then to ask for clarification so I just held at SILOY, right hand turns, 229 inbound heading.

Then of course as I'm outbound about to turn in abound on a third go around, he clears me OWABY and asks me to speed it up. I tell him unable, I need some space to execute my turn and proceed back to SILOY to get reoriented.

Of course, my KFC150 is still acting up so it was a nice workout hand flying it all.

Any thoughts?

[Cris]

Unless the controller included " hold as published" and "expect further" .... I would have continued on the assigned flight plan until you were able to get clarification. What you got was not a valid clearance and requires the PIC to get clarification. Until you repeat the controller instructions you have not accepted the clearance similar to any other ATC instruction to modify a routing. The cardinal rule is to never ever accept a hold clearance without an EFC since ATC would have no way of knowing when the pilot might decide to leave the hold and the PIC would have no way of knowing how much fuel might be required to remain in the hold.

[David Mazer]

I think I agree with Cris. A hold instruction that isn't published that doesn't include instructions and expect further clearance time isn't a hold instruction. I would have tried hard to get ATC's attention especially in IMC with no autopilot.

[aerobat95]

Yea the holding instruction he gave you is not valid. This is out of the AIM:

If unable to obtain holding

instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to

frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), then

enter a standard pattern on the course on which the

aircraft approached the fix and request further

clearance as soon as possible

[AndyFromCB]

Thanks, that's exactly what I thought, too. Both the controller and I dropped the ball today. I know why I was holding, I was painting the target on my GMX200, same altitude as me, approaching OWABY from BATRY and one of us must have slowed down or sped up sooner than the controller anticipated and I got stuck with a hold.

Rusty, glad I went up, didn't feel too much behind the airplane at the beginning and definitely none at the end of a little 1.6 hour hard IMC session. Amazing what a little havoc a cold/flu combined with a busy work schedule can wreck on feeling current.

[John Pleisse]

Spacing... I get it all the time and just do it. One lap is all it takes. Inbound, I call inbound and they clear me. Of course it is not a valid hold, but quiz a controller on an efc time and he'll know what he is dealing with. Just say'in. Help 'em out. Know who or what is in front of you and to a lesser extent, who or what is in back of you (unless it is an MD80).

[xftrplt]

The instructions were valid, though arguably incomplete, since they lacked an EFC.

Standard pattern, 1 minute legs, right turns, on the inbound course to the fix, not (necessarily) 229 degrees.

Direct OWABY? Turn shortest direction direct.

[AndyFromCB]

The instructions were valid, though arguably incomplete, since they lacked an EFC.

Standard pattern, 1 minute legs, right turns, on the inbound course to the fix, not (necessarily) 229 degrees.

Direct OWABY? Turn shortest direction direct.

Direct OBABY didn't happen. I completed my third inbound to SILOY, the controller can wait ;-) He didn't seem too upset. At that point I was too close to OWABY, already turning back inbound to SILOY.

I guess I didn't just think about holding on the inbound course I was already on to SILOY, like I said, I was rusty.

Lesson learned, thanks for all the insight.

[xftrplt]

Re D OWABY: No criticism intended, just the unvarnished rules. If ATC doesn't like your full holding pattern, they can simply give you 10 more minutes in the penalty box.

[1964-M20E]

I’m still new to IFR procedures.

What was your inbound heading?

If I understand you correctly you were holding east of SILOY inbound on 229 right turns. Of course Monday morning QB is easy but I think it would have been better to hold right turns inbound 049 and maybe that is what others are saying. That way you would not be getting close to the procedure inbound course and others as they would pass near OWABY at 3100’. SILOY and OWABY are only 5 miles apart.

[M016576]

The instructions were valid, though arguably incomplete, since they lacked an EFC.

Standard pattern, 1 minute legs, right turns, on the inbound course to the fix, not (necessarily) 229 degrees.

Direct OWABY? Turn shortest direction direct.

+1.

Absolutely DO NOT blow off the holding instructions because you believe they are incomplete. Enter holding, get an EFC when you report entering holding.. Get clarification if you need it, though, it could be a safety of flight issue! Unlike VFR flight: you don't have the whole terminal approach picture, even with TCAS or ADSB traffic... allow ATC to do its job.

I liken pilots that trundle through clearances to drivers that drive 10mph too slow in the fast lane without awareness to flow of traffic... Very frustrating!!!

[Seth]

Sounds like you handled the situation well. It can get very busy on the radio at times and I think it was prudent to enter the hold. Legally, they should have given you the expected hold time as discussed and further instructions so you could have your full clearance, but entering the hold was a good move in my opinion on your part.

-Seth

[AmigOne]

This was an interesting, useful and instructive discussion. I found myself changing my mind of what I would have done as I read and probably it is so engraved in my mind to accept controller's clearances that I'd probably would have forgotten about the EFC and in the absence of other instructions and the congested frequency, held standard, right turns and on the inbound course to the fix which it seems to me it would have been the easier way.

[M016576]

This was an interesting, useful and instructive discussion. I found myself changing my mind of what I would have done as I read and probably it is so engraved in my mind to accept controller's clearances that I'd probably would have forgotten about the EFC and in the absence of other instructions and the congested frequency, held standard, right turns and on the inbound course to the fix which it seems to me it would have been the easier way.

That scenario is one that we specifically were presented with in simulators during Navy flight school: low fuel in a jet, but not emergency fuel (yet), and the instructor gives a hold with no EFC time. About 1/4 of the students enter the hold correctly and report it, but fail to ask for an EFC, so the IP lets the student hold until emergency fuel... Typical outcome is a below average grade sheet, You've got to love the simulator: what a great training tool to highlight situations like the one reported above.... Honestly, in my 12 year career flying jets and GA, I've never had to hold in the US ATC structure unless I've asked for it (color me lucky!)!

[AndyFromCB]

That scenario is one that we specifically were presented with in simulators during Navy flight school: low fuel in a jet, but not emergency fuel (yet), and the instructor gives a hold with no EFC time. About 1/4 of the students enter the hold correctly and report it, but fail to ask for an EFC, so the IP lets the student hold until emergency fuel... Typical outcome is a below average grade sheet, You've got to love the simulator: what a great training tool to highlight situations like the one reported above.... Honestly, in my 12 year career flying jets and GA, I've never had to hold in the US ATC structure unless I've asked for it (color me lucky!)!

That's my issue as well, in all my IFR flying, this is only the second time I've ever been issued a hold. First time, long time ago, I got full instructions including EFC. This this time was after a long break in flying. I barely flew last year, been getting the Bravo rebuilt to my specs, sold my Arrow, wrecked my super D due to an engine failure. Only second time in real IMC where I saw the ground for maybe 5 minutes during 1.6 hours of flight time in about a year.

Went up again yesterday and today again.

Yesterday was fun, 200, 3/4, fog, 3 missed approaches as the weather kept on changing below minimums, no sweat, as I had full tanks and weather was decent within an half hour flight north to KSUX. Got my missed approach practice, finally brought her down on 4th ILS 36 where I saw the lights right at 200. I could have held for 7 hours if I had too ;-) Full 89 gallons aboard.

Today was more interesting, 800, 3 miles, winds gusting to 34, but right down the runway, had trouble maintaining altitude no matter how hard I tried. The bumps were just terrible. Good practice, but I only did 2 approaches, called it a day afterwards. Much, much harder to do, good practice, but without a flight director I was all over. I would have not attempted it with lower ceilings.