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TFR Violations Today

201er

By 201er
in Miscellaneous Aviation Talk

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MooneyMitch Grand Master

MooneyMitch

Posted
Posted

My opinion, the TFR is, in most cases, vastly over used. As with TSA restrictions on us at our general aviation/commercial airports throughout our Country, it only serves to curtail our freedoms to fly, have normal acces to our airplanes, and punish innocent people.

A TFR for the Space Shuttle Endeavor

? Are you kidding me?

  • Like 4
Skybrd Rising Star

Skybrd

Posted
Posted

My opinion, the TFR is, in most cases, vastly over used. As with TSA restrictions on us at our general aviation/commercial airports throughout our Country, it only serves to curtail our freedoms to fly, have normal acces to our airplanes, and punish innocent people.

A TFR for the Space Shuttle Endeavor

? Are you kidding me?

I agree 100%, who is making up the TFR list. He must not be a pilot. I just bought an I-pad and foreflight so I can check out where the TFR's are. TFR's and TSA's are putting the crunch on us.
  • Like 2
aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

My opinion, the TFR is, in most cases, vastly over used. As with TSA restrictions on us at our general aviation/commercial airports throughout our Country, it only serves to curtail our freedoms to fly, have normal acces to our airplanes, and punish innocent people.

A TFR for the Space Shuttle Endeavor

? Are you kidding me?

I agree - and in fact, it can be argued that TFRs are anti-productive as far as VIP safety. It broadcasts to all the bad guys in the world with bid red circle bulls eyes on the map where to go look for VIPs.

Anyway with the rules in place, I enjoy that both my fore flight and my XM weather help me stay out of the red circles.

PilotDerek Community Regular

PilotDerek

Posted
Posted

I saw today that a couple of small planes were intercepted by F-22's in the TFR arond the UN. It was reported that they had requested permission to enter the TFR.

M016576 Grand Master

M016576

Posted
Posted

TFR's, MOA's and Restricted areas are in place for YOUR safety as a GA pilot. Please be careful. Please check the TFR's prior to flying and please adhere to them.

TFR's around here are typically set up for fire fighting efforts. Fly into those and you risk mid airs or worse. Call the controlling agencies for MOA's prior to transiting them and find out if you're about to trundle through a huge simulated air to air engagement. Please.... Be safe.... And don't whine about being safe.

Really guys? complaining about the use of TFR's and other airspace control measures? Particularly when you may not know the whens and whys? Think about the sheer number of news/YouTube/social media/fans/observers in various types of VFR aircraft that might try to mix it up over TFR type events. Thats not even counting the possible unregulated nefarious activity that may be out there. Space shuttle being ferried? That might draw some civilian photographer attention.... No matter, that once in a life time type transport of a national asset is such a huge inconvienience for all of us GA pilots that its totally worth complaining over (sarcasm).

This thread is not showing the sort of class or professionalism I'd expect out of most of the mooney owners out there. Lets leave the whining to piper owners....

1964-M20E Grand Master

1964-M20E

Posted
Posted

While we are on the subject of TFRs let's not forget the TFR over the Disney since 9-11 that in my mind is not temporary.

TFRs are over used and will be put in place at the drop of a hat. Also you have the sporting event TFRs which are not published anywhere and will not show up on Foreflight or any other device or website but they do exist and these TFRs do not achieve any security or safety.

TFRs for wild fires or other emergencies where you have a large number of aircraft working the emergency can provide a level of safety for the aircraft in the area doing operations and may even keep you out of the smoke if you are so busy looking at Foreflight that you do not see the smoke. However, the TFR area and elevation should be as small as possible to achieve the goal.

The FAA should come up with a new term to virtually eliminate the TFR and call it a TAA temporary alert area. This would alert pilots to added risks in a certain area but would not restrict flight into that area. This would be good for most of the times when they use a TFR. Only for VIPs inner ring would there be a TFR and the outer ring a TAA. All other uses for TFRs would become TAAs. Yes this would add more letters to the alphabet soup but it would make for fewer TFRs and would lessen the impact of accidently forgetting one.

I guess the one good thing is most TFRs rarely extend above 2500 to 3000AGL but this should be looked at as well if the operation altitude of working aircraft is say below 1000AGL then the TFR should not be above 1500AGL 500feet separation is sufficient for flying in normal airspace.

  • Like 1
201er Grand Master

201er

Posted
  • Author
Posted
The FAA should come up with a new term to virtually eliminate the TFR and call it a TAA temporary alert area. This would alert pilots to added risks in a certain area but would not restrict flight into that area. This would be good for most of the times when they use a TFR. Only for VIPs inner ring would there be a TFR and the outer ring a TAA. All other uses for TFRs would become TAAs. Yes this would add more letters to the alphabet soup but it would make for fewer TFRs and would lessen the impact of accidently forgetting one.

This is a great point. Everyone who can avoid flying during a TFR does and everyone else goes IFR or gets permission anyway. It just makes it a lot harder and ramps up delays. If it was a TAA, I'm sure gliders, students, etc would opt to avoid it anyway. When you read through the exceptions to a VIP TFR, it's practically everyone anyway so it makes you wonder what's the point anyway?

fantom Grand Master

fantom

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There were recent software upgrades to AOPA and Duats. In one day last spring, there were over 100 TFR's. All VIP, election oriented.

To add insult to injury, we're being needlessly inconvenienced by most of them, as well as paying for that big lumbering 747 + staff, when a small VIP jet would do nicely. :o

  • Like 1
MooneyMitch Grand Master

MooneyMitch

Posted
Posted

"TFR's, MOA's and Restricted areas are in place for YOUR safety as a GA pilot. Please be careful. Please check the TFR's prior to flying and please adhere to them."

Of course we understand MOA's, etc. and the need to absolutely be aware and informed. That is part of being a safe pilot.

As we travel forward, we continue to loose more airspace for us to fly in. We keep reading that there are less and less of us small ga pilots in the air, so adding more and more airspace restrictions doesn't seem logical due to an increase in traffic and for our safety.

I offer the following examples for airspace loss for us; UAV's airspace issues, West Coast NOAA [not FAA] airspace marine sanctuary airspace restrictions, the permanent TFR over Disneyland, and the continued overzealous use of the TFR for the space shuttle/747 travel. The shuttle has traveled across country many, many times in this configuration for years without this TFR nonsense. I don't recall hearing about one instance when there was an issue with another aircraft interference. For me, the TFR is appearing to be a blank check.

Safety is without a doubt, most important in our flying. Where do we draw the line though ? Where do we stop being able to think and be responsible on our own, without a restriction or airspace grab telling us where and when we can fly. Are we that stupid or unable to be thinkers, that we really need this? If so, maybe we shouldn't be flying airplanes at all?

  • Like 3
Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Are we that stupid or unable to be thinkers, that we really need this? If so, maybe we shouldn't be flying airplanes at all?

Careful there, Mitch--you'll give some regulator an idea! And the impact may only knock him unconscious.

I firmly agree that many TFRs are unnecessary, and enforcement appears to be overzealous. When flying cross-country, how am I supposed to know where every college/professional stadium is, and when a game is actually being played there? I can't even keep up with the home schedule of the local college here, and I actually earned my MS there recently . . . Note that I am purposely avoiding traveling politicians, all part of "the game" for the DC-dwelling, self-important stuffed shirts who need to have the interstate closed during rush hour to reach the airport and depart as the only moving aircraft . . .

The joys of life in a battleground state . . . If you think Colorado has been visited, check Ohio some time. My home and airport are in OH, my job is in WV. Thankfully most of my flying is away from the rest of Ohio!

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

Safety is without a doubt, most important in our flying. Where do we draw the line though ? Where do we stop being able to think and be responsible on our own, without a restriction or airspace grab telling us where and when we can fly. Are we that stupid or unable to be thinkers, that we really need this? If so, maybe we shouldn't be flying airplanes at all?

Mitch I am with you the whole way - but the last sentence you should be careful who you say such a thing to. To a pilots forum, okay, but I know some will say great - so stop flying.

M016576 Grand Master

M016576

Posted
Posted

Say what you will about losing the freedom of our airspace system, but I don't think TFR's are a problem, in fact, I see them as '"airborne notams."

I fly in a MOA on a regular basis for training. What amazes me is the sheer number of GA VFR aircraft that transit these moa's during published active hours without so much as a peep to the controlling agency. Legal? Yes. Smart? No (IMHO, obviously). BUT- If we blocked off every MOA to GA traffic, though, the entire west coast would be isolated from middle America! My point? GA pilots have run of the roost (again IMHO), so when pilots complain about TFR's "encroaching on their freedom," it feels like whining to me... Much like those that complain that they can't buy assault rifles for "personal use." Yes, I do see those two issues in the same light.

TFR's for VIPs, sporting events, UAVs and anything else out there are for your safety, and the safety of others around you (both airborne and on the ground). How much of an inconvienience have TFR's really caused you? Did you have to cancel one flight? Or two? Would that flight have been worth it if you had had a midair with a helo, Uav, 747... Or perhaps been hit by fireworks? Or would it have been worth it if you we're not inconvienienced and traveled through that area without a hitch, but people on the ground were injured or killed due to the lack of the TFR?

Just my opinion. Obviously I'm a bit biased, as I work on both sides of the airspace boundaries...

201er Grand Master

201er

Posted
  • Author
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How much of an inconvienience have TFR's really caused you? Did you have to cancel one flight? Or two?

Yes, more like dozens of flights! We get VIP TFRs in NY probably around 30 days a year. Every time the UN meets we get the Hudson VFR corridor blocked off which sends north/south bound traffic 40 miles around. Then there's the sporting events TFR. We have to keep tabs on the Yankees home schedule because it blocks the VFR corridor off about another 30 days a year. It has gotten to the point of outright ridiculous and to no one's safety. In fact it makes the public feel less safe when the newspapers report someone violated a TFR unknowingly (yet nothing happened and no threat was even present). Or let's remember the multi-week TFR on Martha's Vineyard when the Obama's were vacationing. President takes a vacation and all of GA has to be put on hold...

M016576 Grand Master

M016576

Posted
Posted

Yes, more like dozens of flights! We get VIP TFRs in NY probably around 30 days a year. Every time the UN meets we get the Hudson VFR corridor blocked off which sends north/south bound traffic 40 miles around. Then there's the sporting events TFR. We have to keep tabs on the Yankees home schedule because it blocks the VFR corridor off about another 30 days a year. It has gotten to the point of outright ridiculous and to no one's safety. In fact it makes the public feel less safe when the newspapers report someone violated a TFR unknowingly (yet nothing happened and no threat was even present). Or let's remember the multi-week TFR on Martha's Vineyard when the Obama's were vacationing. President takes a vacation and all of GA has to be put on hold...

You are flying VFR beneath class B airspace inside a mode C veil. Time to start filing IFR.

You live in a high traffic area with a great deal of political, social and business traffic. I have no doubt that that is part of the reason why you live in that area. Like it or not, you are an extremely small fish in the aviation world flying around there. I restate my original point with the amplifier that I'm sorry TFR's have effected you, but it's your choice to live and fly there. I'm sorry that the safety of the president of the free world, and the leading political delegates of the world has caused you a slight inconvienience in flying your private aircraft. Clearly I'm in the wrong: TFR's are totally rediculous. After all, it's not like aviation has ever been used as a tool to attack a big city... Like New York....

201er Grand Master

201er

Posted
  • Author
Posted

After all, it's not like aviation has ever been used as a tool to attack a big city... Like New York....

May I remind you that the attacks were carried out without any regard to FAA rules.... so I don't think creating rules for VFR GA pilots not to go there will stop the odd nut from doing so.

As for IFR, the delays are very long on a normal day, add a TFR and they're impossible. If the TFRs were genuinely able to guarantee safety, there might be some argument for them but in reality they provide nothing more than a false sense of security and extensive delays or prohibitions for the rest of us.

jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted

Say what you will about losing the freedom of our airspace system, but I don't think TFR's are a problem, in fact, I see them as '"airborne notams."

I fly in a MOA on a regular basis for training. What amazes me is the sheer number of GA VFR aircraft that transit these moa's during published active hours without so much as a peep to the controlling agency. Legal? Yes. Smart? No (IMHO, obviously). BUT- If we blocked off every MOA to GA traffic, though, the entire west coast would be isolated from middle America! My point? GA pilots have run of the roost (again IMHO), so when pilots complain about TFR's "encroaching on their freedom," it feels like whining to me... Much like those that complain that they can't buy assault rifles for "personal use." Yes, I do see those two issues in the same light.

TFR's for VIPs, sporting events, UAVs and anything else out there are for your safety, and the safety of others around you (both airborne and on the ground). How much of an inconvienience have TFR's really caused you? Did you have to cancel one flight? Or two? Would that flight have been worth it if you had had a midair with a helo, Uav, 747... Or perhaps been hit by fireworks? Or would it have been worth it if you we're not inconvienienced and traveled through that area without a hitch, but people on the ground were injured or killed due to the lack of the TFR?

Just my opinion. Obviously I'm a bit biased, as I work on both sides of the airspace boundaries...

We flew through MOA's on a ten times daily basis when I was a pilot at Mesa. its not a big deal.

Research Midairs involving a MOA. Its about one per year average, or less. Your chances of getting struck by lighning are higher.

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