Newbe Looking for advise on a Mooney

[flyinfool1011]

Hello:

I'm new to the Mooneyspace community. Please let my tell you a litte about my background then I will get into my question.

I am a person looking to get my private pilot lic next spring. I am strongly considing buying a Mooney before I start lessons and letting my son fly it before I start my training. I realize it is a complex airplane. However, I have over 10,000 hours of flight experience as a flight engineer on the C141B, B727 and the L1011. Zero stick time. Therefore, I am very much in tune with procedures, aviation lingo, and checklists. My son has his privates and this is something I have always wanted to do myself. I have a friend that owns a 1965 M20E and when I saw it I fell in love with the plane.

Anyway, with all that said. Do you think the Mooney would be too much for me to handle given my background with no time on the yoke ?

Thank you in advance for your input.

flyinfool1011

[OR75]

i am not sure i would buy the C152 i trained in ....

[smccray]

I would recommend flying a fixed gear plane at least through your solo- beat up a rental plane and stronger fixed gear instead of your own plane.

[MooneyMitch]

I would suggest getting your private pilot instruction/certificate in a fixed gear C150, C152 or C172.

If you are completely serious about owning the Mooney, I suggest learning all I could about the different models, and specifically learning about the models in your price range.

Also, find a Mooney knowledgeable person, using them to help you become more familiar with the Mooney airplane. After you discover your preferred model, then start looking for it as you train.

When you find a particular Mooney of interest, use your Mooney knowledgeable friend to help you as you pursue the possible purchase. When you find a Mooney of interest and set up a purchase, use a well qualified Mooney Service Center for a pre-buy inspection.

More than likely, as you travel down the Mooney research road, you will also find a well qualified Mooney flight instructor. We can all help you with that process too.

There is tons of information on MooneySpace about all the different models. Also, use other internet sources, searching for good articles on specific Mooney models. Example: search for "pre-buy Mooney M20E", or M20F, etc.

You will more than likely begin receiving lots of great information following your post here on MooneySpace. Keep us up to date and ask away! Mooney is a great airplane and you will be glad you got one!

[co2bruce]

Insurance for your son, if does not have an instrument rating may be a problem. I also agree I would rather beat up a fixed gear 172, or 152, than a Mooney with (expensive) retractable gear. All that said, I know there are people on this board that did their training in a Mooney. I'm sure they can give you first hand experience.

[BigTex]

I'd get my private at a local flight school and beat up someone else's airplane. When you own an airplane (especally one that's 47 years old), you'll be dealing with airplane stuff when you should be focusing on flying. Get you're private then look at purchasing an airplane... My two cents.

[jetdriven]

You can buy an old Cherokee 140 for 25 grand, fly it 200 hours, and sell it for the same. Then get your Mooney.

Like this one: http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?ID=701754

[robert7467]

I am currently training in a Mooney, and I am having no issues with it. I would suggest getting an instructor with lots of time instead of a low time instructor. My instructor didn’t have a lot of Mooney time, but he had 3500 hrs of instructing, and over 6000 hrs TT in small planes, so basically he can fly anything. Also, a high time instructor, can let you mess up without exceeding his limitations and damaging the airplane. I know for a fact, on several occasions, that if I would have went with a low time instructor, in a complex retract, something really bad would have happened, but instead he is very skilled, and lets me mess up so I can learn from it. A low time instructor would take over before you messed up, therefore you wouldn’t really learn anything from it.

Needless to say, it didn’t work out between my high time instructor, and I need to finish my PPL. I have a new instructor with low time, but now I am at the point to where that doesn’t even matter, because I am now confident, and comfortable with the plane, and I have the experience to know if something doesn’t feel right to do a go around, and I can execute that in a split second.

My opinion, is that any airplane, is a good airplane to learn in, as long as you take your time, and put safety 1^st, and it makes sense to learn in the plane you intent to purchase.

Once again, the above is just my opinion, from my experience, and there are more guys on here, with more experience that will total disagree with my advice, and they can be right. So just listen to what they have to say, think it through logically, and determine what’s best for you. Whatever their opinion is, they are right, because that’s what works for them.

[jetdriven]

Remember the operating cost of this airplane is nearly twice what a 172 or Cherokee is. Primary flight training can be done in a complex retract, but for the extra cost of the airplane, you can buy a trainer, fly it 200 hours, and then crash it with no insurance and walk away for less.

[KSMooniac]

You can buy an old Cherokee 140 for 25 grand, fly it 200 hours, and sell it for the same. Then get your Mooney.

Like this one: http://www.barnstorm...l.php?ID=701754

I concur. Sure, you could train from the beginning in a Mooney, but there isn't really an upside to doing so IMO, but there is plenty of downside. You will not save any money, and in fact it could cost you a lot more if you bend something, or have a major maintenance issue. I would look for such a Cherokee, or a 150/152 (presuming you can fit in one well enough), or even an old tube-and-fabric taildragger. Any of those planes would be much better suited to learning to fly, and should be easily sellable when you're done and ready to go get that Mooney. I *would* recommend training for the instrument rating in your Mooney, though, vs. something slower and less complex.

If you don't want to buy a trainer, then I'd consider looking for a local club or flight school, and work up a good cost estimate to get you past the checkride. At the end of the day, 50 hours of time in your own Mooney will likely cost more than that, and perhaps a lot more.

[Hank]

I found my Mooney 3 weeks before my PPL checkride, and had to ignore it to concentrate on flying. Then I bought it. Fresh low-time pilots with Zero Retract time are difficult to insure, even as named pilots.

While there is nothing wrong with training in a Mooney, I would recommend getting to solo or beyond in the flight school rental. Learn to land on someone else's landing gear, not retractable gear that you have to maintain and repair. Then start blending flights in both airplanes, and finish up in the Mooney. Recognize in advance that this will take longer--more flying time, more instructor time, more months to get your certificate.

The down market certainly makes buying a trainer less expensive, but then you will need to sell it to someone. "Buy your second airplane first" is a good approach, and it has worked well for me.

George Perry has a great thread on this site from a couple of years ago about what to look for in a Vintage Mooney. It is lengthy and full of excellent advice. Use the "Search" box. The important part is to buy a well-maintained airplane, watch out for certain Mooney-specific problem areas and do not be in a hurry to find the right one.

Best of luck to you! Please let us know how it goes for you, and if you have any questions.

[stevesm20b]

I don't think you would have any problem learning how to fly in a Mooney. But, I think it might be better to learn in an airplane more suited for training. Some of the maneuvers, like learning short and soft field landings for instance. Would be better in a airplane that could stand heavy abuse(hard landings). Cessna 150/152 or 172 would be my choice to learn in.

[Skywarrior]

When I started on my Private license, I beat up my club's 152 very badly. I mean, I dropped the plane onto the pavement when landing a LOT of times. I was really slow at learning the finer points of controlling an airplane.

Fifty or sixty hours of that, and I got it out of my system. Then, I went 21 years without any flying at all, except for GIB (Guy In Back) flying in the Navy. When I restarted, I immediately bought a Mooney and set out to pass a BFR. That took me a year. Sure, NOW I do just fine. I'm just saying it took me a lot of time, and I inflicted a lot of abuse on both the club's planes and my own plane.

As enticing as your own aircraft can be, it can be a cruel master, too. If you have landing problems with a new-to-you Mooney, you may become discouraged, and stop flying regularly. Even if you don't have any problems, your insurance quotes are gonna be outrageous.

I recommend you buy a used Piper, or even a 152, and pound the bejesus out of the runway pavement with that. THEN get yourself a nice little Mooney. Your emotions will push you to buy a nice Mooney first, but I believe that would be putting the cart before the horse.

Looking at airplane ads is a lot of fun. One poster on here said his wife referred to airplane magazines as "Airplane Porn". She wasn't far off the mark.

You may not believe me, but I'll say it anyway: You'll have the most fun in the simplest and slowest airplane. There - I said it. And I truly believe it.

And there are a bunch of people, who are no longer with us, who tried to push their advancement along too quickly, due to feeling that time is flying by quickly, and there's no time to waste on learning flying incrementally.

Please keep us posted on what you decide to do. We are all interested in new pilots' progress.

[Gone]

I am with Mitch and the others on this one. Learn in a plane that forgives your mistakes (C152, C172, PA28 140-160). Then buy an E model.

Not a C. Not an F. Not a J. Not a K. Not an R (sorry Mitch). An E model.

Is my bias showing???

[jetdriven]

An "E" is what you buy when you tell yourself you can't afford a J

[Gone]

Ha!! Good one Byron.

[robert7467]

Luckily during the first 30 hours I had that high time instructor, that’s why I recommended one. Knock on wood, the plane hasn’t been set down that hard, because he was skilled enough to let me make my mistake, but take over at the very last split second. A low time instructor is used to letting the students plant the Cessna’s on the runway, or they might take over before you learn your lesson.

I agree with the other guys on what they have to say, but my opinion is:

Low time CFI- Trainer

High time CFI- Whatever you want to fly

Another thing, learn everything about your plane, and don’t ever let an instructor do something that you don’t feel comfortable with. You have to be an expert on the limitations of the aircraft: Example- (this has not happened to me) but what if an instructor ask you to stall into a spin? If you know everything about your plane, you will know that Mooney’s are not approved for spins. There can be a lot of instances like that, but by being armed with that information, it could save your life. Also, don’t let your instructor exceed your limitations. Most CFI’s are good, but you can end up with a bad apple. So get to know him, and if you don’t feel comfortable with him, get a new instructor.

My first flight instructor in the Mooney was a complete idiot. I know for a fact, if I would have stayed with him, I would be dead. Let’s just say first lesson, the ATC was screaming at him, and we came real close to colliding with another aircraft on the ground. Now the FAA is investigating because he did something stupid (I don’t know the full story). All I am saying, just because he is a CFI doesn’t mean that he is safe.

[MooneyMitch]

I absolutely love the E model. It is a great airplane!! Highly recommend it.

[N33GG]

From a high time CFI (me), I would strongly recommend all of you guys and gals that are learning to go get in a trainer for at least the primary phase when you are learning how to fly an airplane, even if you already own your own Mooney. No instructor will let you go as far and make the same mistakes in a Mooney that will be no sweat in a trainer (that's why we call them trainers). And further, until you are allowed to go far enough to make certain mistakes, you really will not learn everything you shlould know. I don't care how high time or great your CFI is, or how many hours you have in the military as a crew member, or anything else. Learning goes way up when you get to experience mistakes, as well as how it feels to do everything right.

FWIW.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Insurance for your son, if does not have an instrument rating may be a problem.

Not a problem.

Not a problem for a student pilot, either.

That said, I'd rather rent until I had a Private Pilot Certificate.

[Parker_Woodruff]

And my reason for not buying until achieving your Private Cert is because it's a hassle to buy and sell a plane...especially if you're only going to use it 50-100 hours.

[HopePilot]

There are only so many Mooneys in existence. It makes me cringe to think of people learning how to land in any of them.

[MooneyMitch]

There are only so many Mooneys in existence. It makes me cringe to think of people learning how to land in any of them.

I'm still learning how to land in mine

[bnicolette]

I'm still learning how to land in mine

Diddo that Mitch!!

[201er]

I think it would be a mistake to do primary training in a Mooney. A lot of basics such as stick & rudder are replaced by aides such as auto pilots, interconnected rudder pedals, etc. Granted this is done mostly for convenience, it is also to free the pilot up to handle more complex tasks such as IFR and engine management. These are non factors in a trainer and in fact you shouldn't be thinking about "managing your engine" or avionics, etc during basic training.

I started by flying gliders, then piper cub, then 152 and many more planes before getting to a Mooney. All of those experiences added up and made me far more prepared to by flying my plane today. It's not only cheaper but also more fun this way. I really can't think of one good reason to overwhelm yourself and outspend yourself to do the basics in a Mooney.