Looking for fuel injection stc for 0-360 A1D

[Mooneyjet]

Hello guys anyone could point me toward where I could find the stc for converting a carbureted 0-360 to fuel injected, any pireps out there. Thanks in advance 

[jetdriven]

IIRC the only way to do that is get an angle-valve IO-360-A series and use it. Its not cheap. An overhaul is 27K and a core is 14K.

 

 

 

[carusoam]

And then you join the group looking to build new cowlings...

Do you need the IO-390 too?

You will be fast though???

-a-

[triple8s]

I had been wanting the same thing, "ditch the carb" but unfortunately I have not found or heard of an STC for doing that. I just keep hearing thee words in my head, "How much money do you put in an old airplane and what will it get me?" I have a C model and I get 147 -150 kts cruise @ 7500 to 10,000 ft  AS IS and I dont think the IO-360 Mooneys are too much faster. A used IO-360 mid time will cost low to mid teens plus install, plus other things that may be different. I'd say at a minimum you'd have 20 grand in changing things over to FI. I just dont see it being worth all the hassle for 7 or 8 kts.

[jetdriven]

If you want a fuel injected Mooney, buy one

[OR75]

Quote: jetdriven

If you want a fuel injected Mooney, buy one

[rbridges]

sorry, last post was mine.

[DaV8or]

Quote: jetdriven

If you want a fuel injected Mooney, buy one

[Mooneyjet]

Thank for the replies guys, As for upgrading it would be nice, would anyone. BE in the market for a gently use m20c.

[btoz]

Hi, old thread I know, but I am new here.

I have looked at the same question a while back here in Australia for my B model (with original O-360 A1D) and found that there is an injected engine identical in almost every way: the IO-360 B1B- used at least in Beech Travelairs and Fuji FA200 and Doyn Piper PA23-200.

Not strictly 'converting to fuel injection' even though pretty well the same thing in this case, but changing to a different and certified engine type which is fuel injected. It is still 180HP, still uses the original updraught configuration sump, and overall is exactly the same engine component for component with the exception of the fuel system parts (which include the engine driven pump). The RSA5AD1 injector throttle body combination ends up just a little shorter than the old Marvel carb- about an inch from memory. There is even an STC for this into a Mooney M20C (STC number SA558GL), but I have not had any success following up this STC's data with its owner nor the FAA after a records fire. I spoke to the STC owner and he told me that the information had been lost but was happy for me to keep looking and would permit me to use it if I could find it. I would love to hear from anyone who has this STC installed in an actual aircraft or knows anything about it as it will save me quite some work. If anyone even knows of an aircraft in that configuration, and could let me know, I can research from there. I spent a lot of time about a year ago looking into this and have done a detailed cross check of parts manuals etc to be sure I was on the right train. I have a copy of the STC- that is the actual certificate only, no drawings or details.

Sensibility aside, during overhaul, my o-360 A1D is becoming an io-360 B1B, and I am heading down the road of duplicating the fuel system from a later injected model. Fuel flow(pressure) gauge would change, as does the electric boost pump and some plumbing. The airbox would possibly even mount on the injector, but a little high of its correct position- a simple extender piece will be needed there, and there will not be the same need for carb heat without fuel spraying in the venturi, though I do not see an immedate risk leaving the carb heat linkage there and functional. It is the same, original engine underneath it all, so no mounting,baffling or cowl changes etc. even the mixture and throttle linkages are in the same positions. Small weight change I guess, but otherwise very straightforward except for the paperwork nightmare

The secondhand market is not so great here for later models at attainable prices to me, and I have a pretty good old model to play with, so please don't shoot me for something which would make no sense over there.

Any info available I would love to hear, no matter how trivial, and any I have is available to assist others on similarly crazy paths.

Regards from 'downunder',

Brian.

[stevesm20b]

I don't know why someone would go to all that expence and trouble to go from a O-360 to an IO-360 in a C model. The carb is less trouble and easier to start. The O-360 is a lot cheaper to overhaul than the IO-360. There is only about 4 kts difference in speed between the C with the O-360 and the E model with the IO-360. If you put the Powerflow exaust on a C model you just about make up the difference in speed between the two aircraft. And for a lot less money. The only advantage I can see is running LOP with the injection, so your able to have a slightly less fuel burn at the same speed. I think if you want injection buy anE,F or J. It would be a lot cheaper than going through the expence and trouble of converting a C to fuel injection.

[Alan Fox]

No offense but powerflow exhausts don't do squat , The Carb engine is so much easier than the IO , try hot starting an IO360 and you will miss your O360 trust me.... I hate IO360 fuel injection....

[jetdriven]

Screw the starting, mine starts fine in 15 blades hot and instantly cold. What is nice is the Lop and the 1-2 gallons per hour it saves, the cooler running angle-valve heads, and the extra 10 knots. All those add up to a free engine over 2000 hours.

[btoz]

This is becoming a bit mixed up. The IO-360 variety that you guys are calling pro's and con's for - like an IO-360 A1A in an E or F model or an IO-360A3B6D in a J Model is not at all the same as an O-360 A1D or O-360 A1A with fuel injection instead of a carb (designated an IO-360 B1B). Hope the below helps.

Yes, I know there are other differences.- mags etc between the engine models I group together like O-360 A1A and O-360 A1D or between the two 200hp versions in E/F or J- I am only describing what they have in common to show 180hp vs 200hp broadly.

IO-360 A1A or IO-360 A3B6D both are:

200Hp, Angle Valve cylinders, Bendix RSA5AD1 Injector facing forward from sump (horizontal induction), heavier by 30+ lbs than a 180Hp O-360 A1A or O-360 A1D or IO-360 B1B.

IO-360 B1B is:

180Hp, Parrallel Valve cylinders, Bendix RSA5AD1 Injector facing downward from sump (vertical induction), almost identical in weight to O-360 A1A or O-360 A1D, llighter by 30+ lbs than IO-360 A1A or IO-360 A3B6D.

O-360 A1A or O-360 A1D

180Hp, Parallel Valve cylinders, Marvel Schebler Carburetor facing downward from sump (vertical induction), almost identical in weight to IO-360 B1B, lighter by 30+ lbs than IO-360 A1A or IO-360 A3B6D.

The cylinders for any of the 180Hp engines above are the same style and available from multiple sources (though I have gone with Lyc. for my new cyl kits).

The overhaul of the 180Hp IO-360 B1B is very nearly the same as the 180Hp 0-360 A1D as it is the SAME engine core, mags, govenor etc. The difference is the overhaul of an injector throttle body, fuel spider and injectors vs that of the carburetor- not a gigantic difference in my case as I had the parts available on hand in overhaulable shape. Engine driven pump looks similar but makes a higher pressure on the injected type- cost is the same and would be replaced in the overhaul as a matter of course.

I guess the hot start characteristics will be nearly the same for all of the IO-360s regardless of 180 or 200Hp, as they all have the fuel spider on top of the case where it gets nice and hot after shutdown. Maybe that is a tradeoff for me, but easily manageable as others say, and to me outweighed by the better fuel management and elimination of carb icing (still have a venturi for metering there in the Bendix throttle body, but no vaporising fuel there to supercool it).

Cold starting should be at least as good- likely better, as the priming occurs at the port, not before a long inlet pipe to the port- not a real issue for either IMHO.

I was overhauling anyway, and this way I will have the option to more controllably run LOP, and have a little more economy, and eliminate one form of induction icing- no more Hp/knots to be expected. It is the same engine and induction air plumbing after the sump, sitting on the same mount, getting fuel delivered differently: by injectors at each port instead of at the venturi of the carb.

The added cost of a different electric boost pump, check valve and plumbing is there to consider- ok for me.

Powerflow? I don't have experience there either way, but why, as I have a good original exhaust from my original O-360A1D which is just fine.

Not trying to convince anyone, especially in the US where Mooneys abound- to do it, but it is the way I am going and I think the reasons are sound for the small cost and perhaps not so small hassle.

If anyone has knowledge of the STC I mentioned, or knows of an existing installation of this engine, that could ease some of the 'hassle'.

Brian.

[Hank]

Fly the IO-360 LOP and you will be at O-360 fuel flow. Where are the savings?

If you want an injected Mooney, sell your C and buy an E/F/J. Fly LOP at slightly higher speeds and similar fuel flow.

Seems like a lot of trouble to me for ~5-8 knots . . .

[jetdriven]

Hankk, what it your FF in cruise? I would bet an IO-360 LOP is a little lower for the same crank horsepower. I could be off though.

[Hank]

Byron--

I don't have fuel flow, but I do average 9 gph. My comment was based on yours above for 1½-2 gph savings. At 8-10K, I typically indicate ~135 mph. Now that ISA temperatures are approaching, I need to do a 3-way GPS speed check. Maybe soon--this weekend we're having our annual Plane Ride Day as a fundraiser for the airport, so we can mow the grass, maintain equipment, etc.

[hindsight2020]

I think for the added expense and wonky starting idiosyncrasies, the mechanical FI system doesn't really stack up in the fuel savings department. If it were automotive EFI it would be one thing, but this is one where I find the IO- an inferior answer to my quest for efficiency. WOT, carb, lean til rough (and never cook a cylinder as a bonus on top of it), and 10gph or less depending on altitude... and cheaper overhaul. and cheaper cylinders. and...I digress

EDIT: To add First post. Don't own a Mooney yet (currently own a pa-28-161) but have my eyes set on 20C hopefully in the not too distant future. Forum has been a great resource for information so far!

[OldGlassMan]

I don't know why someone would go to all that expence and trouble to go from a O-360 to an IO-360 in a C model. The carb is less trouble and easier to start. The O-360 is a lot cheaper to overhaul than the IO-360. There is only about 4 kts difference in speed between the C with the O-360 and the E model with the IO-360. If you put the Powerflow exaust on a C model you just about make up the difference in speed between the two aircraft. And for a lot less money. The only advantage I can see is running LOP with the injection, so your able to have a slightly less fuel burn at the same speed. I think if you want injection buy anE,F or J. It would be a lot cheaper than going through the expence and trouble of converting a C to fuel injection.

Agreed. Simply going to FI will have a long, long payback. There are other mods, like the Lake Aero cowl, one-piece windshield, control seals, one piece belly, etc., that will get you 3 of the 4 knots or more for a lot fewer $$s. My "slow" M20G with these mods can stay with a stock cowled Exec in cruise, although he has a little on me in climb.

[Hank]

I flew 250 nm with an F today, he had 4-6 knots on me, and was in the pattern when I was still 10 nm out. Not too bad for a C! I was happy to stay close, he was surprised at my (low) fuel bill. We both have the 201 windshield and I have a 3-blade prop, which is rumored to cost 3-5 knots in cruise. I ran WOT-a tad and 2500 at 9500 msl. Times like this make me not want an IO with finicky starting , expensive jugs and higher fuel burn.

[Shadrach]

I had been wanting the same thing, "ditch the carb" but unfortunately I have not found or heard of an STC for doing that. I just keep hearing thee words in my head, "How much money do you put in an old airplane and what will it get me?" I have a C model and I get 147 -150 kts cruise @ 7500 to 10,000 ft AS IS and I dont think the IO-360 Mooneys are too much faster. A used IO-360 mid time will cost low to mid teens plus install, plus other things that may be different. I'd say at a minimum you'd have 20 grand in changing things over to FI. I just dont see it being worth all the hassle for 7 or 8 kts.

You're right, the injected ACs are really no dramatically faster, maybe 3-5kts in cruise all other things being equal. I think the delta in climb performance is more significant, and FI alone is not going to get you there. That will take 8.7:1 CR pistons, tuned intake and the angle valve heads. Injection does seem to help with high altitude ops and makes the engine more efficient in all operating regimes, The IO 360 A1A also has the ram air option which does make a difference at alt.

LASAR has an STC to swap engines, but I've never heard of an FI STC for the standard 0360, though the RV guys do it all of the time,

[KLK]

Brian, 

I’m interested in more information regarding the O-360 A1D to IO-360 B1B conversion. Can you share with me the details via email? 
 

kellenkester81@gmail.com

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, KLK said:

Brian, 

I’m interested in more information regarding the O-360 A1D to IO-360 B1B conversion. Can you share with me the details via email? 
 

kellenkester81@gmail.com

For fun, KLK...

Check the age of Brian’s very informative post...

@btoz last checked in about four years ago...

I lit an invite light on his panel, if he happens to stop in...

 

Anything we can help you with?

Generally, there is an STC from Lasar to go from the O to the IO360...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[RobertGary1]

My guess is that if anyone offers this it would have to be throttle body injection, not individual injectors. Otherwise you’d have to swap out the top end to have the ports for the injectors. So you’d at best be saving the bottom end. Is it worth having a 50/50 engine?

Btw in my experience carbs are more reliable. Had fuel servos fail, like most I’ve had minor issues with debris in injectors etc.  Carbs are pretty bullet proof.

-Robert 

[carusoam]

Probably good to clear up one issue...

Changing from an O360 to an IO360 is what is required in the Mooney world... to get fuel injection for your M20C...

Thus turning it into an M20E... And getting 200bhp while you are at it...

Its not actually adding a fuel injection system to a carb’d engine... But, it is a lot more simple...  
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...
 

Best regards,

-a-