Mooney spins and stalls

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

When I got my F I wanted to work on all kinds of stalls and upsets but knew enough not to spin.  One i tried was ~60% power, clean, climbing, feet on the floor (on purpose). So it was uncoordinated.  And yes, it rolled over on a wing rapidly.  If you weren’t ready for it, it would be eye watering. Nose comes down very fast as well as the bank increases.  I don’t think this is something that needs practiced a lot, but I feel like seeing an incipient spin once or twice in the Mooney was worthwhile.  To be clear, it didn’t spin, as I initiated recovery at the break, but when it stalls uncoordinated, lots of things happen fast.

I will have to try that, my plane stays pretty straight with no rudder input, but with that said, I don’t think I have ever done a stall without my feet on the pedals. 

[Fritz1]

As everybody else said, don't spin a Mooney intentionally, practice stall recovery, for spin training use an aircraft that is certified for aerobatics like a Extra, a Citabria or a CAP10. I had a character building experience over 40 years ago with a customer who asked me to spin an aircraft that was not certified to spin, should have said no, 50 ft wingspan, strobe power supplies in the wingtips that increased inertia, I eventually got it out with throttle closed, full rudder against spin and kicking the stick forward, was counting corn cobs when we pulled out, never again, extensive spin and aerobatics training in CAP10 and CAP20 thereafter, ample rudder authority, easy into the spin and easy out of the spin, designed to do that, the Mooney is not

[hammdo]

My C is fairly docile with stall — coordinated —when I do practice them. First time I practiced a stall with my CFI in the F (had the twist in the wing) she broke hard left nose down fast, scared the ‘bejesus’ out of me as I didn't expect such a hard, sharp drop. Lesson learned. Warrior I owned and did hundreds of stall practice were very easy, hardly noticed. Same with the Velocity…

-Don

 

 

[Brent]

I did a lot of stalls with a knowledgeable CFI when I was training for a Commercial rating (I didn't finish, good training, though). Power on, power off, falling leaf. I practiced power-on and power-off on my own, solo. I'll tell you I didn't much enjoy the power-on stalls when the wing dropped. I had spin training in an aerobatic 152 years ago, so that awareness informed my reflexes, which were quick enough. Still, even though I liked and appreciated the extra stall training, I try to stay away from the edge of the envelope. I will say that training made me hyper-aware of airspeed in the pattern and mountain wave situations out west, so that's a definite positive. I have the AOA indicator option on my G3X, too.  

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

Yeah, don't spin the Mooney.    Spin characteristics are not as friendly as some utility-category training airplanes, like C150s or C172s. 

I would suggest getting spin training in a C150 or C172, though.   C150s are fun to spin, although it takes forever to climb back up to altitude to do it again.   Some of the schools here were spinning their C172s fairly regularly and I'd hear them making calls in the practice areas, "Look out below!"

Anybody who suggests a falling leaf in a Mooney has probably never flown a Mooney.   Bad idea.   Don't do that.

I’ve done falling leaf stalls in Mooneys. No problem at all. Since I learned their value in learning proper rudder use, I’ve done them in multiple aircraft types. Cirrus pilots were horrified, so you are in good company  

[Echo]

I stalled uncoordinated one time in a Mooney. Only time I ever felt NOT in control as PIC. I don’t EVER want to do that again. Plane snapped over HARD and would have entered a spin if not countered. It escalated quickly my friends.  Don’t go there. 

[Hank]

The DPE on my IFR checkride wanted to see an accelerated departure stall. We did reduced throttle, 23", somewhere around 1500-2000 msl

He told me at couple of times, "don't recover yet," but was happy when I did so at the bubble. Then the sweat began to dry on my back and the left side of my face.

The rest of the ride was much lower stress!

[Yetti]

Coordinated both the F and S have been very predictable in at or near stall and pretty docile.  In the S we could kind of hold it on the edge of the stall for a good while.    We were trying to get a good reading on the stall vane.    It was way early. 

[ArtVandelay]

I stalled uncoordinated one time in a Mooney. Only time I ever felt NOT in control as PIC. I don’t EVER want to do that again. Plane snapped over HARD and would have entered a spin if not countered. It escalated quickly my friends.  Don’t go there. 

So if someone unintentionally stalls it, what’s the chances of it being coordinated?
I think it’s better to train to avoid it.

[C.J.]

@SilentT

Here's a playlist of 9 videos that should be helpful until such time you get some advanced instruction in spins. Spencer Suderman covers all types of scenarios leading to stalls/spins and all of it is free of charge on YouTube.

His explanations and video shots are exceptional and provide priceless info.

 

[flyboy0681]

Several years ago I was shooting the breeze in my hangar with Jose Monroy. I asked him what the hairiest thing he has ever been through in his flying career and told me in no uncertain terms that it was when he was seeking FAA certification for his long-range tanks he had to demonstrate how the plane would react in spins under different weights and CG. I remember vividly him telling me that he flew with a female pilot from the FAA and how skillful she was. 

[Flyler]

7 hours ago, Thedude said:

My 79 J is out of rig requiring left rudder in cruise and very very little right rudder in takeoff climb. Obviously I want to fix this, but it's almost like it helps keep the plane coordinated for power on stalls...

I also have a 79 J. If your name refers to The Dude from Big Lebowski, I am also a big fan!

I only had about 5 Mooney hours before I got my J. I thought it flew amazing when I got it.  I still liked how it landed better than the Warrior II rental I was used to, but I did find that it took a lot more effort to get nice landings, and required a lot of focus.  That's until Rob (takair) rigged the plane for me.  At first he did the flaps/ailerons/rudder and it made the plane fly straight as an arrow and probably a few knots faster.  The he adjusted the elevator trim (it was way out) and the plane flies like a dream now.  It's just... It's perfect.  I really had no idea what I was missing though as I didn't have enough Mooney experience.  Perhaps yours is the same.  Get that old girl rigged right, you'll be glad you did.  Obviously we all stay out of the slow speed danger zone but if I get caught there inadvertently, I would damn sure prefer a properly rigged plane.

[201Steve]

Catherine Cavagnaro (a regular contributor to AOPA) runs a school in Sewanee, TN called Ace Aerobatics. She is the math department chair of the university she teaches at. An aerodynamic whiz, very sharp, and can explain everything that’s happening and why- both before and while it’s happening. In other words, very good at taking the mystery away. They fly 152 Aerobats. Highly recommend. And a lot of fun. 

[Echo]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

So if someone unintentionally stalls it, what’s the chances of it being coordinated?
I think it’s better to train to avoid it.

Yes. Don’t ever TRY to stall a Mooney power on uncoordinated. 

[Justin Schmidt]

In training,  solo, working on maneuvers and stalls i inadvertently spun. With cfi my stalls were good. Solo not so much, video showed i was coordinated, so maybe thinking rigging? haven't tried stalls solo since my ticket and need to find someone that can check it. It kicked hard to left. Does fly slightly uncoordinated with no rudder input. 

[Bartman]

I did my transition training with a Mooney instructor who owned and flew his own Mooney.  We went to 5,000 ft AGL, and just like he asked me in primary training in the Archer, he asked me to do a power-off stall.  He had commented a couple of times about me not using the rudder, so I'm sure he knew to watch closely when he asked me to do the stall maneuver.   Of course, I was not coordinated because I was not using the rudder, and it dropped a wing in a split second.  It scared the crap out of me.

My first reaction was alieron, and as soon as he saw me do that, he pushed hard and neutralized the ailerons.  He knew what I was doing and what was going to happen.  After instructing me on what I did wrong, the stall characteristics of the Mooney, and how to prevent and recover, he made me do 5 or 6 more. 

Fly smoothly like you are flying your mama, and don't ever fly uncoordinated in slow flight or in the pattern.

Ever.

[Justin Schmidt]

17 minutes ago, Bartman said:

My first reaction was alieron

My first reaction was soiling my pants, ha. But after recovering level for 5 min and continued to do other maneuvers 

[PT20J]

Pilots seem to overreact to a wing drop at stall. It’s not a spin. Not even close. It takes a couple of full revolutions to develop a true spin. Memorize and practice the PARE recovery. Google it. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

...spin...Memorize and practice the PARE recovery. Google it. 

Right there in my Owners Manual:

Note that it says "briskly apply full rudder" and "rapid forward movement" of the yoke. I remember reading from a Mooney instructor who tried a leisurely, Cessna-type recovery and scared himself before using rapid control movements to their limits, resulting in an initially slow recovery, losing several thousand feet in the process.

See the NOTE that a one-turning spin and recovery may lose 2000 feet of altitude, plus any additional altitude loss due to confusion, slow reactions or less-than-brisk control movements . . . .

Ya'll be careful out there!

P.S--reading the list, it looks like

1. P & A
2. R
3. E forward 
4. WAIT
5. E and later Power to recover from the (steep) dive. 

[dkkim73]

12 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If you can get someone with a Citabria or something similar, you might even find spins fun. 

The Super Decathlon is one of the most enjoyable planes I've ever flown. Did aerobatics and upset training after basic tailwheel in the Citabria. 

You can get very comfortable going in and out of spins in that. 

A very different plane from the Mooney, though. 

[LANCECASPER]

13 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Several years ago I was shooting the breeze in my hangar with Jose Monroy. I asked him what the hairiest thing he has ever been through in his flying career and told me in no uncertain terms that it was when he was seeking FAA certification for his long-range tanks he had to demonstrate how the plane would react in spins under different weights and CG. I remember vividly him telling me that he flew with a female pilot from the FAA and how skillful she was. 

 

[LANCECASPER]

@donkaye, MCFI weighed in on this subject a few years back:

 

https://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html

[midlifeflyer]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

@donkaye, MCFI weighed in on this subject a few years back:

 

https://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html

Interesting read. The tightening of the spin at first in the anti-spin rudder stage of recovery sounds a lot like what happens in a Tomahawk, leading to the “Traumahawk” monicker. 

[N201MKTurbo]

34 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Interesting read. The tightening of the spin at first in the anti-spin rudder stage of recovery sounds a lot like what happens in a Tomahawk, leading to the “Traumahawk” monicker. 

I learned to fly in a Tomahawk. I probably spun one about 20 times. I never knew it was so traumatic until years later (internet) when everybody talked about it.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I learned to fly in a Tomahawk. I probably spun one about 20 times. I never knew it was so traumatic until years later (internet) when everybody talked about it.

I learned to fly in one too. Love 'em. I get excited when I see one on a ramp and always talk with the ower if they are around.  I gave a flight review in a T-Hawk about two months ago. They're awesome. 

But I was hearing "Traumahawk" well before the Internet.