2025 Annual Labor Questions

[Lax291]

Hey all, still new to this Mooney thing and now completed my 3rd annual.  Great news, after two brutal annuals that were more than double the one attached, it's starting to level off.  The question has to do with the discrepancy labor and the recorded time of ~25hrs.  Does that seem to check out with what was completed outside the annual inspection?  

I do want to say, I love this shop, trust the work they do, and they either always are around when I call or call me back the same day spending on average 20-45 minutes on the phone explaining things and answering any questions I have (hopefully they're not charging for that time...).  Very happy with their work and people but doing a quick sanity check on the labor, appreciate any insight you can offer.

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

30 minutes ago, Lax291 said:

Very happy with their work and people but doing a quick sanity check on the labor, appreciate any insight you can offer.

I can only speak for myself, but I would happily write the check and thank the aviation gods.

[Pinecone]

The annual labor hours is about right to do a proper annual on a Mooney.  Mooney published a 100 hour/Annual inspection checklist.

https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/100-HOURANNUAL-Inspection-Guide.pdf

My shop gives me this, filled out for MY airplane, at the end of the annual.  As well as the AD compliance checklist.

As for the discrepancies, I would prefer the shop talk to me about them and the quote some prices before proceeding.  Not sure where the cost came from.  Why did the lap a valve?  Most of the stuff is pretty much normal part of an annual.

[Andy95W]

I’d pay it willingly with a smile on my face, but I’d ask them to show the work and explain what they did (and why).  Explanation is so that you can be a better informed owner and you’re learning what to look for on your own.  Unspoken message is that you’re not just a check writer, you are being an active participant in the maintenance of your airplane.

I don’t think 25 hours is too excessive, anything from 15-20 would be very reasonable.  As an example, replacing the exhaust gaskets could be a 1 hour job that blossoms into 4 hours if the nuts are seized or an exhaust stud breaks.  (Just between you and me, I do question the necessity of replacing the gaskets “to provide exhaust clearance to bottom cowl”.  I’d want them to show me that.)

[Hank]

Depending on your model, 20-25 hours for annual is expected. Whenever you change IAs, they have to research AD compliance, and verify it every year. Make sure you get a printed & signed AD compliance report after every annual.

Welcome to the Mooney world. Sounds like you're off to a good start!

[philiplane]

25 hours to patch a baffle, clean the oil separator, generate a landing light 337, chafe protect a baffle, replace four exhaust gaskets, change an ELT battery, lap a valve, remove a bird nest, clean and paint some of the crankcase, and change a nav lamp bulb....everything else is part of the annual.

It's about double what I'd expect, to fix those squawks.

Edited yesterday at 03:03 PM by philiplane

[Immelman]

51 minutes ago, philiplane said:

25 hours to patch a baffle, clean the oil separator, generate a landing light 337, chafe protect a baffle, replace four exhaust gaskets, change an ELT battery, lap a valve, remove a bird nest, clean and paint some of the crankcase, and change a nav lamp bulb....everything else is part of the annual.

It's about double what I'd expect, to fix those squawks.

I have the same feeling.

The annual inspection and servicing seems about right, double for those smaller* discrepancies.... ? 

*I havent had any valve work done, not sure on #6.

[Fritz1]

concur, annual sounds about right, discrepancies are about twice what one would expect, I would go there in person and ask the shop manager to provide a verbal breakdown of the hours spent on the discrepancy items, there may be something hidden in there that sucked up 10 hours that you might want to know about, a good shop manager will sense it if things don't add up, thereafter write a check, useless to argue if otherwise happy with the shop

[MikeOH]

What bothers me is the list intermingles annual items with discrepancies and provides no breakdown on individual item labor.

That’s what I’d ask for: Please break down the labor for each item.

[PT20J]

If you like the shop and the quality of work, I would just accept it and not quibble over it. Mooney owners have a bad reputation for being cheap bastards and given the decreasing number of good repair shops and mechanics, I would want to develop a good relationship with a shop you trust. A lot of things on a Mooney are difficult to access and take extra time and unless you are standing there with a stop watch you really have no reasonable basis to question their numbers except a bunch of opinions from the internet.

It looks like they noticed air leakage from the #1 exhaust valve during the compression test and lapped the valve. If it were mine, I'd run it for a few hours and recheck the compression to see that it came up, but that's just because I'm an engineer and like to verify results. I'm sure it's airworthy as is or they would not have signed it off.

[47U]

24 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I'd run it for a few hours and recheck the compression to see that it came up,

That stood out to me, too.  What was the compression after lapping the valve?  And, what does “gained access to the exhaust valve” mean?  Did they just removed the rocker box cover?  Or did they remove the cylinder?

Not sure what replacing exhaust gaskets has to do with clearance to the bottom cowl, but I’m not a J owner…

Talk nice with them, from what I read on the forum, your shop may be the exception to many shops.

 

[EricJ]

It says they did a gear swing, but no mention of checking the preloads.  

I've no idea whatsoever why they thought they needed a 337 for an LED landing light.   That's pretty unusual.

That said, I'll +1 that if you like them that's a big part of the battle of finding a shop.   I'd definitely ask about checking the preloads on the gear, though.   That's an important thing on a Mooney annual.

[Lax291]

6 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I’d pay it willingly with a smile on my face, but I’d ask them to show the work and explain what they did (and why).  Explanation is so that you can be a better informed owner and you’re learning what to look for on your own.  Unspoken message is that you’re not just a check writer, you are being an active participant in the maintenance of your airplane.

I don’t think 25 hours is too excessive, anything from 15-20 would be very reasonable.  As an example, replacing the exhaust gaskets could be a 1 hour job that blossoms into 4 hours if the nuts are seized or an exhaust stud breaks.  (Just between you and me, I do question the necessity of replacing the gaskets “to provide exhaust clearance to bottom cowl”.  I’d want them to show me that.)

The reason for the gasket replacement is to move to a thinner gasket.  The bottom of the muffler rubbed a hole through the bottom cowl and we thought the thinner gaskets would give it some more clearance.

[Lax291]

3 hours ago, 47U said:

That stood out to me, too.  What was the compression after lapping the valve?  And, what does “gained access to the exhaust valve” mean?  Did they just removed the rocker box cover?  Or did they remove the cylinder?

Not sure what replacing exhaust gaskets has to do with clearance to the bottom cowl, but I’m not a J owner…

Talk nice with them, from what I read on the forum, your shop may be the exception to many shops.

 

We decided not to check compression after lapping and that we'll check it again at next annual to see if it brings up the number.

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, Lax291 said:

We decided not to check compression after lapping and that we'll check it again at next annual to see if it brings up the number.

Compression checks are often not very repeatable.   It could have given a higher compression number the next day after not doing anything.

 

[Schllc]

Not really enough information for me to make a suggestion.

I will say this, you said you like them and are happy with them. If you “trust them” then I would say pay the bill without question and then ask for a moment to sit down and go over the discrepancies and ask if it’s possible to be involved in the future to understand the decisions. 
I have found in my years dealing with subcontractors, it’s a lot easier on them answering the questions honestly after the money is settled. It’s similar here because you plan on working together in the future.  If the question is over half of 3700, then I would evaluate well internally before broaching. We are talking about 1800 ish dollars which will likely be more legit than not given how you describe their service, and in airplane dollars is not a massive sum…

On the contrary, if you do not trust them, still best to probably pay and just leave because any other course will only pile on anxiety, frustration and expense. 
Good shops, with competent people and a good ethos are not as easy to find anymore so choose wisely. 

[MikeOH]

18 minutes ago, Lax291 said:

The reason for the gasket replacement is to move to a thinner gasket.  The bottom of the muffler rubbed a hole through the bottom cowl and we thought the thinner gaskets would give it some more clearance.

That just doesn't sound right, but I'm not an A&&P.  Is it possible the engine mounts are deteriorated? I've also heard the mounts can sometimes be installed reversed; no idea if that would cause engine sag.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I've no idea whatsoever why they thought they needed a 337 for an LED landing light.   That's pretty unusual.

I think is because Whelen got an STC for the lights.

[PT20J]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

That just doesn't sound right, but I'm not an A&&P.  Is it possible the engine mounts are deteriorated? I've also heard the mounts can sometimes be installed reversed; no idea if that would cause engine sag.

Maybe a shot in the dark. My muffler normally has half an inch clearance to the right cowl flap inboard hinge, but hits it when the engine shakes during shutdown. The spinner has never aligned exactly with the top cowling showing about a half inch jog with the spinner pointed down a bit. We put in new mounts with the rebuilt engine and it still didn't line up. I noticed that it was worse after a flight and we found that the bracket that the bottom cowl attaches to just ahead of the nose gear was cracked. We repaired that but it didn't change anything; the cowling still rocked back a bit from air pressure in flight closing the gap between the top cowling and the cowl in front of the windshield. I replaced all the Camlocs that attach the cowling to the fuselage with Skybolt high shear fasteners and that solved the rocking back problem but it's still out of alignment about 3/8" and although the contact with the muffler on shut down is better, it still touches slightly. So, we're going to have to mess with the shims.

[47U]

2 hours ago, Lax291 said:

We decided not to check compression after lapping and that we'll check it again at next annual to see if it brings up the number.

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

Compression checks are often not very repeatable.   It could have given a higher compression number the next day after not doing anything.

EricJ is certainly correct.  And I am not an engine guy (I have more experience on the J-57 and TF-33).

How many hours on the engine/cylinder?  Perhaps have the compression on that cylinder checked when it goes in the shop for the next oil change and not wait until the annual?

It can be surprising how fast a cylinder can go south.  Couple years ago, at the annual, my #2 cylinder was 36/80.  Borescope showed green on the exhaust valve.  I talked to the engine shop (with pics) and shipped them the cylinder for overhaul.  Since I had R2’d the #3 cylinder the year before (broken exhaust valve guide), I resolved to check compressions and borescope at every oil change.  Fast forward 11 tach hrs, I’m changing the oil for the break-in of the #2 cylinder.  Did my compression checks, #1 cylinder was in the mid-50s, down from 70/80 at the annual, just 11 hrs ago.  Exhaust valve leaking air, but the valve did not show visible signs of distress.  Opted to lap it in place… and the compression then dropped to 30/80.  The valve stem was sloppy in the guide.  Cylinder sent to the shop for overhaul.  Shop said the valve was close to being swallowed.  Not fond of running on three cylinders.  Would the #1 cylinder exhaust valve have lasted until the next annual, probably 80 or 90 hrs on the tach?

Sorry to high jack your thread.  I’m sure your shop knows what they are doing, certainly they know more about your situation than I do.

[MB65E]

That’s a great log entry. 
Separate Ad log is a talking point. All that is required is that the AD is signed off. I list them in the log entry with my sign off like they did vs providing a separate AD log. 
 

I just did an annual on an older C model. Log entry was LONG!! I had over 62 hours into it. A Normal full service annual no issues is 20-25h. It also takes about 3 years to get the hours down to that number for the inspection. 

One thing that could be better is there is not a statement of airworthiness. They did comply with the checklist but… “ I certify that this aircraft has been inspected IAW and Annual inspection and was determined to be in an Airworthy condition at this time. This aircraft is approved for return to service.” END

-Matt

[Fly Boomer]

6 minutes ago, MB65E said:

One thing that could be better is there is not a statement of airworthiness. They did comply with the checklist but… “ I certify that this aircraft has been inspected IAW and Annual inspection and was determined to be in an Airworthy condition at this time. This aircraft is approved for return to service.” END

I didn't notice that but, if missing, it would be good for the OP to get it sorted now while it's fresh in everyone's memory.

 

[varlajo]

11 minutes ago, MB65E said:

One thing that could be better is there is not a statement of airworthiness. They did comply with the checklist but… “ I certify that this aircraft has been inspected IAW and Annual inspection and was determined to be in an Airworthy condition at this time. This aircraft is approved for return to service.” END

Wow. Great catch!! 

[Z W]

Every 10 minute job is one stripped screw or broken bolt away from becoming a 2-hour project.

[MB65E]

But that might be just the invoice portion of the software the shop uses. I’d still ask. Overall solid inspection. 
 

On a side note with the connecting rod AD, how are others signing off if affected pN installed? Complied with AD, no metal found?? 
-Matt