New “impossible turn” video - Acclaim S

[toto]

Nicely done, though sometimes hard to make out the aircraft configuration - not many technical details in the narration 

 

[PT20J]

I’ve done this in my M20J. Making it from 600’ depends on the wind. It’s dicey if the wind is calm. I can always make it from 800’ and if there was much wind on takeoff you have to be careful if the runway is short because you’ll be landing with a tailwind. I brief 800 as my minimum turn back altitude under normal circumstances. You might consider that in some cases the best option might be to keep the gear up to stretch the glide and land somewhere flat on the airport gear up if you can’t make the runway. When Don Maxwell had to do this he told me he almost forgot the gear and put it down in the flare. He heard thump, chirp in short succession. He wouldn’t have made it if he had put the gear down earlier. He also had multiple long runways and taxiways available - things to consider when you brief. 

[Ibra]

37 minutes ago, PT20J said:

you have to be careful if the runway is short because you’ll be landing with a tailwind

That’s the crux of it? It’s possible in 6000ft runway with cross runways !
 

I had to remind few UK GA pilots who were watching YT videos that we already struggle to land with engine into wind in typical British 1800ft runway 

Edited September 1 by Ibra

[231MJ]

She's great.  A lot to consider and I suspect the hardest part is forcing yourself to point down rather aggressively and holding off lowering the gear as long as possible.  

[IvanP]

Nicely done!

[Hank]

49 minutes ago, Ibra said:

That’s the crux of it? It’s possible in 6000ft runway with cross runways !
 

I had to remind few UK GA pilots who were watching YT videos that we already struggle to land with engine into wind in typical British 1800ft runway 

She stated at the beginning that she was only going to use the first 4000 feet = 1210 m of runway, and based on her runway exit, she used a bit less than that.

English and European fields are generally smaller than American airports, but I've taken my C in and out of 2000' = 610 m grass runway, but never loaded heavy. I've also been based for almost a decade at 3000' paved fields with few options, but am now getting spoiled with 5000', full length taxiway and multiple Approaches. 

[toto]

2 hours ago, Ibra said:

That’s the crux of it? It’s possible in 6000ft runway with cross runways !

My understanding from the video was that she landed on the same pavement she departed from. There is another runway at the airport, but she always departed 01 and returned to 19. 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

She stated at the beginning that she was only going to use the first 4000 feet = 1210 m of runway, and based on her runway exit, she used a bit less than that.

Yes the video has that caveat about 4000ft-6000ft runway with all disclaimers but still fall short of a conclusive demo: looking at wind conditions, it seems like nice calm day to do a demo rather than landing with “15kts gusting 25kts” in the tail 

The problem with “impossible turn” into opposite runway comes with “50 shades of grey” of aeronautical decision making, I can see how it works with cross runways or long runways in clam winds, however, I still don’t get is wrong with landing ahead into wind? they are survivable even with trees and obstacles? 

If the terrain ahead is completely not survivable one is better off taking off with tailwind (to turn into wind landing) or start 360 turn back to runway after liftoff (while engine is running)?

Even experienced pilot can’t make “impossible turn”, two years ago, a Thunderbirds Commander, AOPA Safety Guru and one of the most accomplished GA pilot passed away after attempting impossible turn in C177.
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193166/pdf

A sobering lesson for many of us: land ahead unless you are overhead !
 

Edited September 1 by Ibra

[Schllc]

16 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I still don’t get is wrong with landing ahead into wind? they are survivable even with trees and obstacles? 

Kind of hard to practice that…

But the video is informational regardless of the success or failure. 
I know that since I fly the exact same plane, this will be imprinted on my brain forever. 
just hoping I can overwhelm the instinct to pull up…

 

[Ibra]

16 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Kind of hard to practice that…

That’s a nice one  one can at least practice wing level, trimming for sensible speed, at 50ft they will know if they will make it or not !

48 minutes ago, toto said:

she always departed 01 and returned to 19

This makes the manoeuvre with lot of tailwind very tricky !

I once practiced in M20J, it needs more than 1000ft agl in calm wind to make full 360 turn, one can get in less than that with some headwind. However, less than 800ft, it looks like it has to be 180 turn with tailwind landing (or 270 turn to taxiway or cross runway). In glider, one can do 360 turn and land into wind after cable break at 400ft agl 

Edited September 1 by Ibra

[exM20K]

50 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Kind of hard to practice that…

But the video is informational regardless of the success or failure. 
I know that since I fly the exact same plane, this will be imprinted on my brain forever. 
just hoping I can overwhelm the instinct to pull up…

 

Yeah, but…. Idle throttle and coarse prop have residual thrust rather than the drag of a windmilling prop pushing a dead engine.

plan for 800-1000 FPM descent rate dead stick and best glide. 
2x standard rate turn is approx 30* bank at Vbg (90 KIAS). Stall clean is 67, so some good margin there.

However,

you need approx 240* of turn to reverse course and align with the final.

that is 2/3 of a minute at 2x standard rate turn. And the sink rate is going to go well beyond your wings-level 800FPM perfectly flown deadstick descent. If you have diverted 30% of the lift vector into the turn, you’re now coming down at 1200-1330 FPM. Add the startle factor, and it just won’t work.

This exercise, as demonstrated, reminds me of all the wannabe hedge fund stud traders I crossed paths with years ago who could paper trade their way to a 4.0 sharpe ratio and immense riches.  Seldom did it work out in real time and with real money.

 

I’ll stick with small deviations from the upwind heading, a landing wings-level with as little energy as possible, and a good takeoff briefing so I’m not making things up under stress.

-dan

 

 

[Schllc]

I don’t know that I could process wind direction, speed and all those other critical factors if you are on the edge.  
If I were to lose the engine on takeoff.  
I usually try to identify where I can put it down when I am filing my flight plan and then  recite to myself where I will put it down as I am taking off.  
I don’t think I would try the turn from anything less than 1500’.

[Rick Junkin]

27 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I don’t think I would try the turn from anything less than 1500’.

The problem with that, which I believe they demonstrated in a Bonanza in the AOPA trials, is once you reach 1500' you'll probably be too far away from the runway to make it back.

Brian Schiff did a podcast on this topic and provided some exercises to execute at altitude to determine your aircraft's capabilities and potential for making this all work. Here are a few links to his different discussions.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D7ujKRXTj5b8&ved=2ahUKEwjD4dSk3riPAxXU5ckDHb7WOP8QwqsBegQIGRAG&usg=AOvVaw2DKC5nnXEW5cIq743tIkpA

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DinTw5L-vg8E&ved=2ahUKEwjD4dSk3riPAxXU5ckDHb7WOP8QkPEHegQIGBAG&usg=AOvVaw0LSifYeOw2IUcGa5Pudv6J

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DzlC3AfCaXAE&ved=2ahUKEwjD4dSk3riPAxXU5ckDHb7WOP8QwqsBegQIFhAG&usg=AOvVaw0n9w33hvX2X73-ZHRe0fcI

[dkkim73]

I am grateful for all the experiments and documentation Janice does with WinginIt, esp. since I have the same airplane and it's otherwise hard to find good comps (watched some Bonanza examples but still not apples-to-apples). 

More recently I am working on more short approaches and overhead maneuvers (since I'd otherwise been trying to reduce variance as much as possible in pattern approaches and stabilized GPS/ILS approaches until everything was dialed in). It's been an eye-opener as there is a learning curve on figuring out energy reserve. I feel I am quickly going from the inital to break (or turn) and dropping gear to "bleed off energy" then, before I know it, the stall horn is going off at 90 kts in a turn and it doesn't quite look right on downwind-to-base; I realize I'm probably stretching it. And then occasionally I am surprised and find I am carrying extra energy to a curving short final and it feels smarter to go around. All in all, I think it's really surprising how fast it sinks with the engine even at idle and full-fwd prop, leave alone if it were truly power-out. It's a heavy plane and the descent angle (or "wire" as Nate Jaros calls it) is pretty steep. Trying to find small power and prop settings to simulate a coarse prop and dead engine would be nice, but I think the bigger lesson is that it feels quite a bit different even when you're trying to work it out intentionally. 

 

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

The problem with that, which I believe they demonstrated in a Bonanza in the AOPA trials, is once you reach 1500' you'll probably be too far away from the runway to make it back.

This is very true, and part of the calculus, you only get one try.
Whether In the Mooney or the A, total engine failure on takeoff is 90% probability you will need to put her down in a pretty narrow window.  Best bet is to identify that on the ground, and have a plan if turning around isn’t an option.  
What’s that old saying about where every plan goes once the bullets start flying…

Circumstances will always direct the path but I’m just planing for a cardinal direction and a known option. My home field the prevailing runway is the bay on 23, and golf courses on the other so those are my “plans”.  I try to think of that especially on unfamiliar or urban airports. West Texas doesn’t freak me out about where I’m going to land in an emergency, north Hollywood airport in FL is a different story.  

[exM20K]

27 minutes ago, Schllc said:

What’s that old saying about where every plan goes once the bullets start flying…

 “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face” -poet/phospher Mike Tyson.  Fact check: True.

[PT20J]

You need to practice at a safe altitude until you know the drill. But, then you really need to practice it on actual departures in varying winds. Only that practice will familiarize you with the view of the ground getting closer with the nose down in a steep turn at low altitude, and the effects on your glide of various wind conditions. After you gain experience with the variables, you’ll know how to brief each departure including the variables of runways available, wind and terrain. 

[hazek]

People die all the time in this maneuver. The problem isn’t that it never works. The problem is that sometimes it does. Sometimes the total sum of the circumstances is such that it will work out. Just the right runway, surrounded by just the right terrain and obstacles, just the right wind, your plane losing the engine at just the right moment, being of just the right weight, you executing the maneuver at just the edge of the envelope available… and it works out. But then there are those other times where people crash badly and die. Mainly because they burned all other options in the available time dead set to make the runway.

When the time comes there are only two choices. You try your luck or you take whatever is 180° ahead of you. Unless there really really are no options I will not test my luck turning back. Instead I will take the available seconds to setup as best I can for a good landing in a field that I prepared for on the ground and keep a lookout for better options. Remember, even a short field is good enough to stop short if you keep your gear up and will leave you with less injuries as long as you keep the plane flying all the way to a complete stop and don’t stall and crash badly. That’s my take.

[skykrawler]

4 hours ago, hazek said:

People die all the time in this maneuver. The problem isn’t that it never works. The problem is that sometimes it does. Sometimes the total sum of the circumstances is such that it will work out. Just the right runway, surrounded by just the right terrain and obstacles, just the right wind, your plane losing the engine at just the right moment, being of just the right weight, you executing the maneuver at just the edge of the envelope available… and it works out. But then there are those other times where people crash badly and die. Mainly because they burned all other options in the available time dead set to make the runway.

 

The problem is they choose to try it when it wasn't possible.   This exercise is to obtain an understanding for when it reasonably is possible.

At my home airport departing west or south offers nothing but streets and interstates.

She chose to turn left on the simulated failure which I believe lengthened the glide path.  Should have tried it the other direction as well.

 

 

[hazek]

28 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

The problem is they choose to try it when it wasn't possible.

The problem is they mistakenly thought it was possible.

28 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

This exercise is to obtain an understanding for when it reasonably is possible.

This exercise gives you a false sense of security at best. You cannot practice the exact conditions that you will have when that day comes to be able to learn if it's possible or not with any degree of reasonable certainty. You will be gambling on that day.

But you can practice glide approaches to a field straight ahead to a degree of reasonable certainty you'll make it.

[kortopates]

I teach the impossible turn maneuver to all kinds of Mooney pilots; even a past student pilot. With our good glide ratio and some practice this is not a hard maneuver. But i don’t think anyone can learn to do this from a video, but hopefully the video inspires folks to seek out training on how to do this since few will pull it off without practice.
This is why we first start off with simulating the departure climb to a safe altitude, pulling throttle, waiting 3 sec for startle effect and commencing a 360 degree turn to measure your altitude loss. Every single person has improved significantly with some coaching and practice with each successive try. We’ll add 50% buffer to their altitude loss to derive their personal minimum turn back altitude. Usually by the third try they’ll be ready to make a successful try. I’ve successfully done this with student in calm winds to winds over 30 kts always returning to the departure end of the runway. With strong winds you have a whole different problem than making it to the runway but slipping down steeply enough before you’re out of runway.
There are important considerations i am not going into here but my intent isn’t to instruct in this post but to encourage everyone not practiced in this maneuver to seek out expert training and practice in it to be proficient. As pilots we can’t have too many tools in our tool bag not to mention knowledge and proficiency adds to our safety immensely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Immelman]

Having tried this in the past.... and when watching this, there is one thing I'm not certain of: the startle factor and time required to overcome that, recognize the issue, make the decision, start the maneuver. Pulling the throttle and immediately rolling into the turn back, is that a fair test? Maybe, maybe not....

[kortopates]

Having tried this in the past.... and when watching this, there is one thing I'm not certain of: the startle factor and time required to overcome that, recognize the issue, make the decision, start the maneuver. Pulling the throttle and immediately rolling into the turn back, is that a fair test? Maybe, maybe not....

Human factors say not!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PT20J]

When I have practiced it, I always pull the power and do a slow count to five before doing anything. That’s about the fastest I think I would react. Reaction time should be lower if you brief it because it will be on your mind. But…nothing is certain where humans are involved. 

[Skates97]

On 9/1/2025 at 11:27 AM, 231MJ said:

She's great.  A lot to consider and I suspect the hardest part is forcing yourself to point down rather aggressively and holding off lowering the gear as long as possible.  

I did it with my CFI in the Cherokees when working on my PPL and in my Mooney for transition training. Both times the most startling factor was how much ground you were looking at to keep the nose down enough to maintain airspeed through the turn. In the Mooney I didn't drop the gear until I knew I had the runway made.

21 hours ago, Schllc said:

This is very true, and part of the calculus, you only get one try.
Whether In the Mooney or the A, total engine failure on takeoff is 90% probability you will need to put her down in a pretty narrow window.  Best bet is to identify that on the ground, and have a plan if turning around isn’t an option.  
What’s that old saying about where every plan goes once the bullets start flying…

Circumstances will always direct the path but I’m just planing for a cardinal direction and a known option. My home field the prevailing runway is the bay on 23, and golf courses on the other so those are my “plans”.  I try to think of that especially on unfamiliar or urban airports. West Texas doesn’t freak me out about where I’m going to land in an emergency, north Hollywood airport in FL is a different story.  

I verbally brief three points before every takeoff. By saying it out loud, even if nobody is in the plane it is an effort to solidify the plan in my mind in the event I need to employ the plan.

"I should be at 60mph or off the ground by xxxx or I pull power and stop on the runway."
"Problems immediately after takeoff my best option is xxxx." (Someplace out in front of me.) 
"Traffic pattern is xxxx, I can make a turn back at xxxx." (Where my turn back altitude is 100' less that TPA)

Sometimes the last one is "Traffic pattern is xxxx, by the time I get there I will be too far away to turn back so my best option is xxxx." For example leaving KPSO yesterday with DA just under 10,000 there was no way I would get the altitude needed in the time needed to turn back.