Landing a Mooney in cross wind

[Dan]

So far I have learned two methods of landing a trainer Cessna in crosswinds. The first is a crab method, seems to work well. The second is a slip type of method. This one I learned last night in about 15k cross winds and it felt kind of unsettling. (landing on one wheel feels weird..)  I assume everone here is familiar with these methods?  My specific question is how does everyone land their Mooney in cross winds? Is one method better than the other for Mooney? Or is it just preference with no real reason behind the method? ??? Thanks for the info.

Dan

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Dan

So far I have learned two methods of landing a trainer Cessna in crosswinds. The first is a crab method, seems to work well. The second is a slip type of method. This one I learned last night in about 15k cross winds and it felt kind of unsettling. (landing on one wheel feels weird..)

[GeorgePerry]

Side loading your landing gear (i.e. landing in a crab) is BAD!  Retractible gear is designed to absorb stress and loading in certain directions and sideways is not one of them.

Fixed gear C's and P's can handle a rediculous amount of side loads since the landing gear is always down and welded.  crab technique should only be attempted in a fixed gear aircraft, and even then it's kind of a dumb way to land.

[LuvFlying]

On this topic... as I was educating myself on the J, reading a POH from a 1977 a friend had, I was really shocked to see that the demonstrated max crosswind is 12 kts.  That's less than the 172 I currently fly.  I thought with a more advanced bird, there'd be more x-wind capability. Am I missing something?

[airkraft]

Demonstrated  Max cross-wind is NOT a limitation.  It's simply the strongest X-wind that was available during that portion of the testing phases...GK

[Dan]

Let me clarify this a bit. The crab method, the instructor showed me to keep the crab on final until essentially flare, then proper rudder to staighten the nose and land, not side load and not on one tire. I didnt mean to imply I was taught to land in side loading condition. 

Second instructor showed me to use a combination of opposite rudder and ailerons to keep the nose straight down the centerline of the runway on final. Its essentially a slip and one wing is low. You are on course correctly and lined up, as long as you do this method correctly. Then land on the one wheel.

Hopefully this makes more sense. I just didnt particularly like having one wing down, but since I will own a Mooney at some point in the future, I wanted to see what might be best so I can practice that.

Dan

[Gone]

I imagine number of us have landed our Mooney's in crosswinds significantly beyond the "demonstrated component" numbers shown in the POH.  Doing so makes us all "test pilots" of course, but that airframe is one of the best crosswind birds in the industry (IMO).

I have put mine down in 20+ knot crosswinds.  There are a couple of things I try to remember (all after the GUMP check of course).

- less flaps to land (especially if it is gusting)

- a bit more speed (not too much) if at max gross (5 mph for each 10kt of x-wind)

- a bit less speed if significantly lower than gross (minus 5 mph for each 300 lb under gross)

- upwind wing low first, then compensate with rudder to keep on the centreline (sit forward enough to put the rudder to stops)

- land on upwind gear.

If the rudder is at the stops and you cannot hold it on the centerline, this technique is not working for you.  Time for a Plan B.

Bottom line?  Mooneys land really well and very stable in crosswind conditions.  Just gotta get a good instructor to show you how.  Then when you are comfortable with whatever technique you use, you will know what it can do.

 

[georgeb]

I've found that landing a Mooney in crosswinds is actually easier than it was in the C brand. Slip or crab is just a matter of preferrence. Either will work fine. I too was taught the slip method from the beginning of final all the way to the ground but after experimenting and practice; practice; practice.... I find I'm crabbing a bit more and only slipping at the end (last 50 ft or so). I did consult with a few CFI's on what was best and both pretty much said it was a matter of prefference,  However you decide, DO NOT land in a crab lest you want to rip your landing gear off. I do find that landing in strong crosswinds with little or no flaps makes for easier landings in xwinds....especially strong xwinds. Key thing is to not fear the winds and get out there and practice them as much as you can until you feel comfortable with them and it becomes second nature...no probs.

George

 

[Flybeech21]

Quote: JimR

I think that a lot of this comes down to personal preference.  I do a combination of the two methods that you describe, transitioning from a crab to runway allignment with the rudder and opposite aileron while on relatively short final.  This gives me time to get everything lined up before landing is eminent.  The timing is much more critical if you wait to the last minute to abandon your crab.

[alun]

i have landed with 35kts crosswind at 90 degrees off.  fly crab, then slip. touchdown on the upwind side of the runway.

demonstrated as far as i know is a certification requirement but its not based on the available crosswind at the time its based on a % of the stall speed.

al.

[Mcstealth]

Quote: alun

i have landed with 35kts crosswind at 90 degrees off.  fly crab, then slip. touchdown on the upwind side of the runway.

demonstrated as far as i know is a certification requirement but its not based on the available crosswind at the time its based on a % of the stall speed.

al.

[georgeb]

Quote: Mcstealth

 show off! :)

[LuvFlying]

Ok. That's encouraging news. I knew that it was DEMONSTRATED, but I thought that demononstrated was very near capability.

I'm comfortable with a 15kt xwind component onto one wheel.  I have experienced xwinds beyond the capability of the C model... slip with the rudder crammed against the firewall... and still getting blown sideways. Was time to pick another runway. (can't remember what the winds were, but I'm guessing in the 20-25 knot component range.  So I was hoping my new bird would have more capability - so I would have more options. Glad to hear it does/will.

[carusoam]

There is nothing more rewarding than a good cross wind landing.  Practice, practice, practice.

What I found challenging was control as speed decreases: It is difficult to keep the upwind wing low.  A slight (over) correction turns the down wind wing low just in time for touchdown.

I think 1965 C was the last of the short rudders (tail cone is separate from the rudder).  You will easily know when you have run out of rudder.   Full rudder in, and the runway centerline is drifting away.  As LuvFlying pointed out, this is up in the 20+ category of winds.

Let me know your thoughts on maintaining control of the upwind wing situation.  (I could use more practice).

 

- Anthony -

[Cruiser]

I did this yesterday in southwestern Michigan. A large low pressure area was causing gusty winds. Crosswind at the airport was 80° from the right. Winds 22kts. gusting to 35 kts. Just remember this is not a steady wind. We were all over the place coming in. Turbulence over the tree tops was moving the plane around a lot. It takes constant adjustments, you just don't add rudder and aileron and hold it there around here. I find that once you begin to flair, you need to take out most of the correction. The landing is pretty normal after touchdown keeping the proper control inputs for gusts on the ground.

[231Pilot]

I change from crab to sideslip on short final, land on the upwind wheel and my Mooney handles most crosswinds easily.  I find it easier to handle in crosswinds than the Cessnas I was trained in.

[Piloto]

To avoid weather vane and bouncing during a croswind landing retract completely the flaps just before touch down. This will assure a solid grip of the runway specially on those ice or snow covered. Low wing airplanes are better at crosswind landings than high wing. Cross wind component reduces susbstantially when closer to the ground.

José

 

[Jsavage3]

Is the nosewheel connected to the rudder?  In other words, with heavy rudder input for crosswind controls, does the nosewheel stay straight or does it turn in the direction that rudder is being applied?

I have an '86 J model and it seems that the nosewheel is not straight when I am jabbing at a rudder...

Nosewheel straight when nosewheel touches is a good thing...any inputs about how you ensure it is so would be appreciated.

 

[Gone]

Jim:

They are connected.

[PTK]

Definitely crab.  What I like to do is frequently practice engine out landings and this requires a slip to dissipate alt fast then land by applying rudder just before touching down with one wheel first.  It's good practice to keep dancing on the rudder pedals while maintaining just enough aileron and bring it in aligned with the runway touching down on one wheel.

[scottfromiowa]

I am a crabber.  I kick rudder straight right before flare and have had no problems holding centerline.  I agree that crosswind component seems significantly reduced with low wing aircraft close to the ground.  I had one terrible 90 degree (out of west) 25+ and gusting and carried to much power...I told my wife on short final that we would try it one time and then take the grass. (east/west runway)  I bounced and immediately added power for a go around.  We were over the runway lights on left in an instant.  Full power (go around at bounce) was the RIGHT decision.  Right as I flared the wind just died and we dropped in...Grass landing was uneventful with the exception of the gusts. 

[carusoam]

dp

[HopePilot]

Full flaps or partial/takeoff flaps?

[Immelman]

Quote: Dan

So far I have learned two methods of landing a trainer Cessna in crosswinds. The first is a crab method, seems to work well. The second is a slip type of method. This one I learned last night in about 15k cross winds and it felt kind of unsettling. (landing on one wheel feels weird..)  I assume everone here is familiar with these methods?  My specific question is how does everyone land their Mooney in cross winds? Is one method better than the other for Mooney? Or is it just preference with no real reason behind the method? ??? Thanks for the info.

Dan

[jlunseth]

I have used both the slip and the crab method, but I find that the slip method is not as effective in the Mooney for high crosswinds.  The technique I use for that is about five - ten knots more speed than normal, only take-off flaps, and wait to get into ground effect to crab.  Usually even a high crosswind tends to settle down some once you are in ground effect.  The slip takes too much bank to keep the center line in a high wind, even for me let alone my passengers, and holding the aircraft in a partial bank for that long just gives the wind too much time to work on the airframe, which has a higher profile (more surface area relative to the wind) once the plane is in the slip.

I tried to use the slip for quite awhile, mostly out of habit and familiarity, but tried a crosswind landing at Willmar a couple of months ago, winds variable over a 140 degree arc from the right and gusting 14-30 knots.  The results with the slip cured me of trying it again.  Amazing how high those runway marker lights are when you are right in among em.  I made the landing no problem with a higher speed and the crab.