ForeFlight Insurance fair price tool

[redbaron1982]

Hey, have you guys seen ths? https://blog.foreflight.com/2025/01/21/foreflights-insurance-fair-price-tool-brings-transparency-to-aircraft-insurance/

It looks a nice tool. In my case, is telling me that I'm paying above the normal range.

[Rwsavory]

To my cynical eye it appears to be a data-gathering exercise in preparation for a new business for them. 

[Hank]

1 minute ago, Rwsavory said:

To my cynical eye it appears to be a data-gathering exercise in preparation for a new business for them. 

Data they can't capture directly from your phone must be input somehow . . . .

[Parker_Woodruff]

While price is one of the most important data points, what this tool doesn't do is evaluate coverage quality.  While most auto insurers have fairly common policy coverages, aviation coverages can be substantially different from insurer to insurer.  Some important items:

• Is Non-owned hull & liability covered?  To what limit?  $100K?  The value of the insured aircraft?  A percentage of the aircraft's value? How many seats maximum?
• What about emergency landing expenses where there's no damage to the aircraft?  $10K?  $25K?  Up to the value of the airplane?
• Hail damage limits for cosmetic hail damage?  10% of the agreed value minus a deductible?  Or is all hail damage covered?  What about getting that written off the policy if you primarily hangar your plane?
• Crew bodily injury exclusions?  Someone gets a low price on insuring their Mooney Acclaim, but did their agent tell them that their insurer excludes crew bodily injury?  So if they're receiving training and the CFI is injured in an accident, they policyholder will be defending themselves if the CFI brings a demand/suit.

Does the tool just use the baseline of $1MM Each Occurrence for Bodily Injury and Property Damage limited to $100K each passenger bodily injury?  We really like to see $200K each passenger (this usually only costs $70-$300 more per year).

 

[redbaron1982]

 

23 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

While price is one of the most important data points, what this tool doesn't do is evaluate coverage quality.  While most auto insurers have fairly common policy coverages, aviation coverages can be substantially different from insurer to insurer.  Some important items:

• Is Non-owned hull & liability covered?  To what limit?  $100K?  The value of the insured aircraft?  A percentage of the aircraft's value? How many seats maximum?
• What about emergency landing expenses where there's no damage to the aircraft?  $10K?  $25K?  Up to the value of the airplane?
• Hail damage limits for cosmetic hail damage?  10% of the agreed value minus a deductible?  Or is all hail damage covered?  What about getting that written off the policy if you primarily hangar your plane?
• Crew bodily injury exclusions?  Someone gets a low price on insuring their Mooney Acclaim, but did their agent tell them that their insurer excludes crew bodily injury?  So if they're receiving training and the CFI is injured in an accident, they policyholder will be defending themselves if the CFI brings a demand/suit.

Does the tool just use the baseline of $1MM Each Occurrence for Bodily Injury and Property Damage limited to $100K each passenger bodily injury?  We really like to see $200K each passenger (this usually only costs $70-$300 more per year).

 

They do ask some of this information (like how much coverage you have, or if it is hangared or not). Having said that, I'm sure it is not including all the small details (like emergency landings without damage to the airplane).

I agree that Foreflight most likely has a business that needs this information. As long as it results in lower insurance prices, I'm ok with that.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Many commercial aviation insurance clients (flight schools, maintenance shops) have been seeing rate decreases.  We'll see what happens with personal aircraft.

[mike_elliott]

45 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

While price is one of the most important data points, what this tool doesn't do is evaluate coverage quality.  While most auto insurers have fairly common policy coverages, aviation coverages can be substantially different from insurer to insurer.  Some important items:

• Is Non-owned hull & liability covered?  To what limit?  $100K?  The value of the insured aircraft?  A percentage of the aircraft's value? How many seats maximum?
• What about emergency landing expenses where there's no damage to the aircraft?  $10K?  $25K?  Up to the value of the airplane?
• Hail damage limits for cosmetic hail damage?  10% of the agreed value minus a deductible?  Or is all hail damage covered?  What about getting that written off the policy if you primarily hangar your plane?
• Crew bodily injury exclusions?  Someone gets a low price on insuring their Mooney Acclaim, but did their agent tell them that their insurer excludes crew bodily injury?  So if they're receiving training and the CFI is injured in an accident, they policyholder will be defending themselves if the CFI brings a demand/suit.

Does the tool just use the baseline of $1MM Each Occurrence for Bodily Injury and Property Damage limited to $100K each passenger bodily injury?  We really like to see $200K each passenger (this usually only costs $70-$300 more per year).

 

Or will the insurance company try to subrogate their losses against the CFI or any other crew (safety pilot, etc) Parker is right, it’s what’s above the bottom line that counts in relation to the bottom line

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

While price is one of the most important data points, what this tool doesn't do is evaluate coverage quality.  While most auto insurers have fairly common policy coverages, aviation coverages can be substantially different from insurer to insurer.  Some important items:

• Is Non-owned hull & liability covered?  To what limit?  $100K?  The value of the insured aircraft?  A percentage of the aircraft's value? How many seats maximum?
• What about emergency landing expenses where there's no damage to the aircraft?  $10K?  $25K?  Up to the value of the airplane?
• Hail damage limits for cosmetic hail damage?  10% of the agreed value minus a deductible?  Or is all hail damage covered?  What about getting that written off the policy if you primarily hangar your plane?
• Crew bodily injury exclusions?  Someone gets a low price on insuring their Mooney Acclaim, but did their agent tell them that their insurer excludes crew bodily injury?  So if they're receiving training and the CFI is injured in an accident, they policyholder will be defending themselves if the CFI brings a demand/suit.

Does the tool just use the baseline of $1MM Each Occurrence for Bodily Injury and Property Damage limited to $100K each passenger bodily injury?  We really like to see $200K each passenger (this usually only costs $70-$300 more per year).

 

I participated in the insurance data submission program with Foreflight when they were building this capability. They asked for a copy of my policy, so they have all of the qualifiers along with my premium. Since they have my policy information I didn't have to input any additional data to see that my premium is in the "good deal" range (Thanks @Parker_Woodruff!)

@redbaron1982 did you need to fill out a survey of some kind to get the assessment of your premium? If so, can you share what details they asked for? I think that would give us some insight on the level of detail the Foreflight algorithm uses for the premium comparisons and perhaps answer some of Parker' questions.

EDIT: I did a little investigating on the Foreflight tool and found this when I started through the process of uploading policy information. As expected, it appears they are only comparing the very basic data at this point.

Edited January 24 by Rick Junkin
added info

[dkkim73]

For those who have participated, was there any verbiage guaranteeing some measure of confidentiality? 

Yes, clearly they're doing a market assessment, at least using their pilot pool, but also perhaps to broker out stratified risk pools based on fine-grained flight data. Kind of a lead generation thing at least, or providing a single point of access. 

One might wonder about the data being used against you in terms of quoting at some point. But they could already do that just by using the product unless they've already promised not to.... Or maybe some other business can use ADS-B data to do the same. Probably someone has. It's also always pitched as "since you're a better driver, let us instrument your car..." 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

For those who have participated, was there any verbiage guaranteeing some measure of confidentiality? 

Nobody can guarantee the safety of your data -- any data they have is, by definition, not safe.

[MikeOH]

I've always been skeptical when they insist on knowing the company I'm using. If they are truly performing a market pricing survey, while they may need policy coverage details, the name of the insurer is irrelevant.

[Rwsavory]

41 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I've always been skeptical when they insist on knowing the company I'm using. If they are truly performing a market pricing survey, while they may need policy coverage details, the name of the insurer is irrelevant.

If a company provides a free service, you are the product. Usually. 

[redbaron1982]

5 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

If a company provides a free service, you are the product. Usually. 

Yeah, that's correct. It happens with a lot of services nowadays: Mooneyspace for starter, airnav.com, skyvector, google, gmail, etc.

I think free doesn't equate to "they are somehow stealing from you"... 

I'm not advocating for Foreflight insurance fair price tool, though.

Edited January 25 by redbaron1982

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

To my cynical eye it appears to be a data-gathering exercise in preparation for a new business for them. 

Agreed

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

If a company provides a free service, you are the product. Usually. 

No doubt about it.  Which, if I'm shopping around, is rather expected and an okay trade-off: they get some of my personal data and, hopefully, I get some market information.  I just don't see the need to provide them with their competitor's name as I don't believe it's it my, or other customer's, best interest.

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

While price is one of the most important data points, what this tool doesn't do is evaluate coverage quality.  While most auto insurers have fairly common policy coverages, aviation coverages can be substantially different from insurer to insurer. 

They actually ask you to upload your policy (at least they did in the Beta).  So, in theory, they are comparing apples for apples.  

 

[Justin Schmidt]

2 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

They actually ask you to upload your policy (at least they did in the Beta).  So, in theory, they are comparing apples for apples.  

 

But are they looking at what's behind those numbers

[Schllc]

Unfortunately insurance coverage quality can never been really vetted until you have an incident. My experience has never been good with anything but car insurance. 
I had a policy for my Aerostar from a top rated insurer, I actually paid extra to get them on the recommendation of my agent. 
I had to move my airplane for an annual prior to sept 30th. The shop I moved it to happened to be in the path of a hurricane. I called my agent and informed them of my planes status.  I told them I would find a way to move the plane if necessary and they assured me that my coverage was solid and I needed to do nothing. 
Well, it was damaged in the hurricane and they then informed me that I had a 10% deductible because it was a named storm.   
I appealed this and was denied.
My recommendation is buy the cheapest possible option you can find in any situation because they will move heaven and earth to avoid paying any claim.  
My commercial building insurance went from 16k to 89k in one year with a 250k deductible. I finally had enough and told them to pound sand.
It is a necessary evil for many things, but that entire industry across all markets and purposes is broken beyond repair. 

[exM20K]

35 minutes ago, Schllc said:

My commercial building insurance went from 16k to 89k in one year with a 250k deductible. I finally had enough and told them to pound sand.
It is a necessary evil for many things, but that entire industry across all markets and purposes is broken beyond repair. 

Likewise, our homeowner’s insurance in Florida tripled in 2023 as all but one name exited the market. Why did they exit? Fraud, mostly, and not hurricanes, which are pretty well baked into the cake by the actuaries.

What it is is fraud, especially roof damage claims filed by criminal roofing contractors who were taking advantage of assignment of benefit agreements being, well, assignable. Inflate the claim, absorb the deductible, and win/win for property owner and contractor. Not so much for the insurance company.

I don’t have the source material handy, but I read that in 2021 or 2022, of the dozen or so companies underwriting homeowners’ policies, only one made money. The economics of suing a stack of contractors over $10,000 to $30,0000 roof jobs isn’t very good.

The Florida legislature did put a stop to the assignment of benefits stuff, and we were pleasantly surprised that our current-year policy reverted to the old rate with a new entrant into the market.

My son, who is a meteorology student, is involved in a company/project that packages soundings, radar imagery, and other stuff for insurance companies to help validate or invalidate hail claims. Whatever fraud can be ironed out of the system benefits the honest players, though not at the expense of wrongly denied coverage, one would hope.

-dan

[redbaron1982]

10 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Likewise, our homeowner’s insurance in Florida tripled in 2023 as all but one name exited the market. Why did they exit? Fraud, mostly, and not hurricanes, which are pretty well baked into the cake by the actuaries.

What it is is fraud, especially roof damage claims filed by criminal roofing contractors who were taking advantage of assignment of benefit agreements being, well, assignable. Inflate the claim, absorb the deductible, and win/win for property owner and contractor. Not so much for the insurance company.

I don’t have the source material handy, but I read that in 2021 or 2022, of the dozen or so companies underwriting homeowners’ policies, only one made money. The economics of suing a stack of contractors over $10,000 to $30,0000 roof jobs isn’t very good.

The Florida legislature did put a stop to the assignment of benefits stuff, and we were pleasantly surprised that our current-year policy reverted to the old rate with a new entrant into the market.

My son, who is a meteorology student, is involved in a company/project that packages soundings, radar imagery, and other stuff for insurance companies to help validate or invalidate hail claims. Whatever fraud can be ironed out of the system benefits the honest players, though not at the expense of wrongly denied coverage, one would hope.

-dan

I hope they do the same here in Texas too (I mean, the law). Home insurance prices went through the roof. In the last year, I think at least 5% of the neighborhood houses changed their roof when it was perfectly fine (all 10-year-old houses). I told my wife, that if the insurance doesn´t go down or, at least, stay the same, we will also contact one of this roof companies and at least get some many back.

[Schllc]

21 minutes ago, exM20K said:

What it is is fraud, especially roof damage claims filed by criminal roofing contractors who were taking advantage of assignment of benefit agreements being, well, assignable. Inflate the claim, absorb the deductible, and win/win for property owner and contractor. Not so much for the insurance company.

It is broken in every single way imaginable. It’s over regulated, unaccountable, easily gamed, widely abused, under capitalized, and under managed. 
But of course it is not just insurance companies exacerbating the situation, it’s just a completely broken system. 
 

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, Schllc said:

I called my agent and informed them of my planes status.

I know, hind sight...  Never call, always email to have documentation.  The agent probably screwed up, but since it was a phone call, Aerostar can just ignore that it ever happened. 

 

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I know, hind sight...  Never call, always email to have documentation.  The agent probably screwed up, but since it was a phone call, Aerostar can just ignore that it ever happened. 

 

Oh. I did both. It’s in writing. I’m still covered, just with the nice beefy deductible. 
best part is I’ve paid 100% of the repair and they have yet to reimburse.   But it’s only been three months. 

[GeeBee]

I am sure the executives of ForeFlight are looking at Jeppesen and trying to bring value to their operation. Both are owned by Boeing and Boeing has put Jeppesen up for sale to reduce debt. Only a matter of time before ForeFlight gets put up on the block. 

[Echo]

12 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I hope they do the same here in Texas too (I mean, the law). Home insurance prices went through the roof. In the last year, I think at least 5% of the neighborhood houses changed their roof when it was perfectly fine (all 10-year-old houses). I told my wife, that if the insurance doesn´t go down or, at least, stay the same, we will also contact one of this roof companies and at least get some many back.

Everyone is shoplifting.  I might as well too and at least get some money back from inflation...

Sheesh.

Yes, in large part the system is broken.  BECAUSE society and morality are broken.  Rationalizing a commandment is easy for many.