Simulated engine-out settings

[midlifeflyer]

The large turn radius with a high glide speed is probably the smallest apart of the problem. Go up and practice the maneuver at altitude and you can get an idea of how much altitude you need in order to complete it and get lined up with the departure runway. The problem is that there are other variables. The winds that day will have an effect on not only whether you will make the runway but also whether you will end up overshooting it. That nice big headwind during departure translates to a non-so-nice tailwind for landing on that not-so-long runway.  So testing itself is only going to give you a baseline which needs to be adjusted that day. I've seen monographs which go into some  calculations but realistically, who is going to do that? The best bet, other than giving up doing it ever, is to test for that baseline, and like takeoff and landing distance calculations, or even instrument approaches, create a personal minimum that you ultimately adjust for conditions with a guestimate.

For those interested, this is the testing suggested by Brian Shiff.

 

[redbaron1982]

On 1/6/2025 at 1:23 PM, EricJ said:

It's been done.    He lands well past his point of lift-off.
 

 

 

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do that with my J with 3 blades MT Prop.

The engine seems to have failed at around 2:35:28, 30s after takeoff. How high AGL that would be? 500ft at best.

My J has a sink rate of ~800fpm at best glide, which would put me back on the ground in 20s. Somehow the guy in the video glide for 1 minute after engine failure.

[EricJ]

Just now, redbaron1982 said:

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do that with my J with 3 blades MT Prop.

The engine seems to have failed at around 2:35:28, 30s after takeoff. How high AGL that would be? 500ft at best.

My J has a sink rate of ~800fpm at best glide, which would put me back on the ground in 20s. Somehow the guy in the video glide for 1 minute after engine failure.

Pulling the prop control back all the way will help if there's still sufficient oil pressure (and a windmilling engine should still have oil pressure).    I don't know if the pilot in the video did that or kept the gear up until the last minute or what, but he was successful enough to have to do a bit of S-turning and still nearly ran out of runway on the far end.   I recall pics of the engine afterward and IIRC think a cylinder or part of a cylinder separated from the engine, but the windmilling looked sufficient to make enough oil pressure to increase the prop pitch if the control was pulled back.    Plus an M20C is lighter than many other Mooneys, so he had a little advantage over some of the rest of us there as well.

[redbaron1982]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Pulling the prop control back all the way will help if there's still sufficient oil pressure (and a windmilling engine should still have oil pressure).    I don't know if the pilot in the video did that or kept the gear up until the last minute or what, but he was successful enough to have to do a bit of S-turning and still nearly ran out of runway on the far end.   I recall pics of the engine afterward and IIRC think a cylinder or part of a cylinder separated from the engine, but the windmilling looked sufficient to make enough oil pressure to increase the prop pitch if the control was pulled back.    Plus an M20C is lighter than many other Mooneys, so he had a little advantage over some of the rest of us there as well.

Yeah, I should do some tests pulling the throttle to idle, and with either RPM full forward or in the low rpm setting.

 

[PT20J]

When I was testing the Garmin Smart Glide, I noticed that I had to pull the prop back in my M20J or the rpm fell in the yellow arc at idle throttle and best glide speed.

[AJ88V]

On 1/7/2025 at 3:49 PM, Hank said:

I thought AOPA Safety had a video with several planes (including a Champ, i think, and a non-Mooney retract) that was illuminating. Didn't @donkaye once post something about this in Mooneys?

 

11 hours ago, 201Steve said:

@Hank I remember a video that Richard McSpadden (rip) with AOPA air safety institute put out, they had like a cub, a skyhawk, and a bonanza I think. The takeaway was definitely don’t try it in a bonanza.

You're talking about the first video I posted from AOPA.  Worth watching, but I think the second video posted is even more thought provoking.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Yeah, I should do some tests pulling the throttle to idle, and with either RPM full forward or in the low rpm setting.

 

It should make a difference. Since we can’t feather, prop back (coarse pitch) is about as close as we can get to feathering.  Not the best, but a decent diagram of prop position.

[Danb]

6 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

@Danb Yikes, that sounds pretty scary. I've been impressed with the elevator trim forces on the Acclaim.

IIUC you flew a Bravo and now fly an Acclaim, and I think there are some commonalities. Is your current understanding that the corrective action is to turn off the AP rocker switch? AFAICT that is itself also the breaker for the AP and the elevator trim circuit. Or at least I can't find a labeled accessible 2nd breaker on the plane or a schematic besides the switch itself.

D

The bravo even though had a G1000 but not the GFC700 autopilot it had an Stec 55x a nice a/p but not fully integrated like the Acclaim my issue wouldn’t have occurred in the Acclaim, I’ve went over the situation as thousand times to see where I screwed up which I’m sure I did, one lesson learned was not to turn on the a/p at 700 feet prior to entering the clouds as a matter of fact it’s not allowed/recommended at that low. Luckily one error didn’t multiply into more errors. Strong lesson learned especially since the outcome was just a couple of shaken pilots.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

For those interested, this is the testing suggested by Brian Shiff.

And if you have seen this before, it is slightly different from the 2019 version.

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

And if you have seen this before, it is slightly different from the 2019 version.

I don’t recall seeing the earlier one, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see differences. For example, this uses a 360 degree turn instead of the 270/90 changes in direction which would be needed and which I’ve seen suggested practicing elsewhere. 

Plus, the whole concept of doing it at altitude means it’s only testing altitude loss, not distance from the “runway” and some of the other variables and sensations which go into the maneuver.  I’ve seen pilots have issues with unfamiliar low-altitude maneuvering during practice circling approaches - and that’s with power. Having done a partial power loss turn back for real, I can say the view is very different and the temptation to pull back despite knowing we need to keep the nose level strong.

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I don’t recall seeing the earlier one, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see differences. For example, this uses a 360 degree turn instead of the 270/90 changes in direction which would be needed and which I’ve seen suggested practicing elsewhere. 

Plus, the whole concept of doing it at altitude means it’s only testing altitude loss, not distance from the “runway” and some of the other variables and sensations which go into the maneuver.  I’ve seen pilots have issues with unfamiliar low-altitude maneuvering during practice circling approaches - and that’s with power. Having done a partial power loss turn back for real, I can say the view is very different and the temptation to pull back despite knowing we need to keep the nose level strong.

I didn't go back to review both versions this morning but, as I recall, the difference was more about terminology.  You make good points, but I think the gist of Brian's exercise was only that, after flying his maneuver, you will know more than you did before.  I think the AOPA video and exercises like this one from Brian could be a real eye-opener for the average Bonanza driver.

And I will add that your real-life experience with power loss is an education that will stay with you forever.  Glad you came out okay.

[midlifeflyer]

5 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I didn't go back to review both versions this morning but, as I recall, the difference was more about terminology.  You make good points, but I think the gist of Brian's exercise was only that, after flying his maneuver, you will know more than you did before.  I think the AOPA video and exercises like this one from Brian could be a real eye-opener for the average Bonanza driver.

And I will add that your real-life experience with power loss is an education that will stay with you forever.  Glad you came out okay.

Agreed. You definitely know more after practice. A lot more. But it’s equally important to know the limitations of the practice (again just like circling approaches in CAVU conditions).

In retrospect, my short adventure had a humorous aspect. It was a second lesson for a new student. The turnback involved flight over construction sites. The student talked about it at work. Someone asked him, “how low were you?” He answered, “the construction worker had blue eyes.”

[aviatoreb]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great discussion!  

 

one important topic to cover…

Trying to restart a TC’d engine after turbo failure…. Broken turbo, or loose hose…

 

if the turbo gives out at altitude…

Suddenly, MP and mixture go into the wrong ratio….

 

There isn’t an easy method to fail the turbo to practice… but reading the procedure should be pretty helpful.

we have a couple of success stories around here…

it helps when you fly around in the FLs…. They get enough energy to get to the next airport….  
 

Let’s see if @aviatoreb is cruising by…

 

Best regards,

-a-

Hello.

Yes - I lost my turbo - and thus my engine went dead at 16,000 one day over PA.  I didnt know it was my turbo at the time and I proceeded to a nearby airport but I did have a lot of options to choose from at that point and I even arrived over my destination airport a dozen miles away with like 10k to spare which I spiraled down to a successful engine out landing.  Looking back I could have tried to restart once at breathing altitudes but my hands were full and the runway was made and it didnt cross my mind.  But it should have crossed my mind.  Anyway I made a nice dead stick landing.  Knock on wood.  The story is on here somewhere - search the word sake.