Backlash against Vector Airport Systems

[DXB]

It's worth mentioning the growing backlash against Vector Airport Systems (https://www.vector-us.com/planepass) in various corners of the internet.   For instance, a new and rapidly expanding Facebook group dedicated to it:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1106100984246858

A few bullet points:

- Vector has been collecting landing fees at certain airports for some time using cameras that capture your tail number by sending a bill in the mail to the address for the registration

- If you don't pay, you'll get letters from them threatening a Iien against your aircraft.

- Whether liens have actually happened and they have real legal ability to obtain them is unclear to me (I have zero legal expertise here).

- Regardless, they market 99+% collection rate in promoting their service to airports, so people are sufficiently intimidated into paying up.

- They are increasingly using ads-b data to supplement their data gathering.

- Apparently they access unfiltered ads-b data from the FAA that identifies folks who enroll in the PIA program (the level of privacy above LADD).

- Folks have gotten bills based on ads-b data without ever touching wheels at the field (e.g. low approaches) or simply by transiting the airspace above.   

- The number of airports with these systems is rapidly growing - it's an appealing revenue engine for airport managers, municipalities, etc. including for smaller/nontowered fields that have enough operations to make it worth the expense of the company installing their systems.  This makes is so much easier for fields where it was previously impractical to impose landing fees to rake in new revenue.

- When I emailed Vector a while back asking for a list of airports using their systems, I got a response requesting my company information and stating they would consider the request if I'm willing to sign an NDA 

- Someone on the related fb group managed to bypass that nonsense and come up with a fairly current list of the 90+ fields currently using them (pasted below).

- I've landed at many fields on this list but only gotten a bill from them once (East Hampton).  Some fields are newly added, but many simply don't collect for planes under 6000 lb MTOW

Here’s the list sorted by state in alphabetical order:

Alabama (AL)

• TCL: Tuscaloosa National Airport

Arizona (AZ)

• GEU: Glendale Regional Airport

• IFP: Laughlin Bullhead International

• SAD: Safford Regional Airport

Arkansas (AR)

• TXK: Texarkana Rgnl-Webb Fld

California (CA)

• APC: Napa County

• BFL: Meadows Field Airport

• CMA: Camarillo

• HAF: Half Moon Bay

• OXR: Oxnard

• SBA: Santa Barbara Muni

• SBD: San Bernardino Intl

• SBP: San Luis County Rgnl

• SMO: Santa Monica Muni

• SQL: San Carlos

• STS: Charles M Schulz - Sonoma County

• TOA: Torrance Municipal Airport

• TRK: Truckee-Tahoe

Colorado (CO)

• ASE: Aspen-Pitkin County/Sardy Fld

• CEZ: Cortez Municipal Airport

• COS: Colorado Springs Airport

• DRO: Durango-La Plata County Airport

• EGE: Eagle County Regional Airport

• HDN: Yampa Valley Regional

• RIL: Rifle Garfield County Airport

Connecticut (CT)

• BDR: Igor I Sikorsky Meml

• HVN: Tweed - New Haven Airport

Delaware (DE)

• ILG: New Castle

Florida (FL)

• APF: Naples Muni

• DT1: Downtown Fort Lauderdale

• FPR: Treasure Coast Intl

• ISM: Kissimmee Gateway Airport

• SUA: Witham Fld

• SFB: Orlando Sanford Intl

• TLH: Tallahassee Intl

Georgia (GA)

• RYY: Cobb County Intl-Mccollum Fld

Idaho (ID)

• COE: Coeur D’Alene - Pappy Boyington

• DIJ: Driggs-Reed Meml

• MYL: McCall Municipal Airport

• SUN: Friedman Meml

Massachusetts (MA)

• BAF: Westfield-Barnes Regional Airport

• BED: Lawrence G Hanscom Fld

• HYA: Cape Cod Gateway

• LWM: Lawrence Municipal Airport

• MVY: Martha’s Vineyard

• PSF: Pittsfield Municipal Airport

• PVC: Provincetown Muni

Maine (ME)

• BHB: Hancock County - Bar Harbor

• PWM: Portland Intl Jetport

Michigan (MI)

• AZO: Kalamazoo Battle Creek Intl. Airport

• BFA: Boyne Mountain

• BTL: Battle Creek Exec At Kellogg Fld

• FKS: Frankfort Down Memorial Field

• PTK: Oakland County International

Minnesota (MN)

(No airports in the list)

Montana (MT)

• BZN: Bozeman Yellow International

• GPI: Glacier Park Intl

• HLN: Helena Rgnl

• LVM: Mission Field Airport

• MSO: Missoula Intl

New Hampshire (NH)

(No airports in the list)

New Jersey (NJ)

• ACY: Atlantic City

New Mexico (NM)

• SAF: Santa Fe Regional Airport

New York (NY)

• 87N: Southampton

• HTO: East Hampton

• HWV: Brookhaven

• ISP: Long Island Mac Arthur

• MTP: Montauk

Nevada (NV)

• BVU: Boulder City Municipal Airport

Ohio (OH)

• I74: Grimes Field

• LUK: Lunken Field

• TOL: Eugene F Kranz Toledo Express

Oklahoma (OK)

• OUN: Max Westheimer

Oregon (OR)

• AST: Warrenton-Astoria Regional Airport

• MFR: Rogue Valley Intl - Medford

Pennsylvania (PA)

• AGC: Allegheny County

South Dakota (SD)

• ATY: Watertown Regional Airport

• RAP: Rapid City Regional Airport

Texas (TX)

• 5C1: Boerne Stage Airfield

• ACT: Waco Regional Airport

• BRO: Brownsville South Padre Island

• CRP: Corpus Christi Intl

• DAL: Dallas Love Field

• LRD: Laredo Intl

• MAF: Midland Air & Space Port

• MDD: Midland Airpark

• SAT: San Antonio International Airport

Utah (UT)

• BTF: Skypark Airport

• HCR: Heber Valley Airport

• OGD: Ogden-Hinckley

• PVU: Provo Municipal Airport

• SGU: St. George Regional Airport

• UT9: West Desert Airpark

Vermont (VT)

• BTV: Burlington Intl

Washington (WA)

• BFI: Boeing Fld/King County Intl

• CLM: William R Fairchild Airport

• OKH: DeLaurentis Airport

West Virginia (WV)

• MGW: Morgantown Municipal Airport

Canada

• CYTZ: Billy Bishop

[Sue Bon]

As someone accustomed to paying landing fees at every airport (including my home airport), are these fees you should be paying anyways? I get bills in the mail or via email from airports all the time.

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, Sue Bon said:

As someone accustomed to paying landing fees at every airport (including my home airport), are these fees you should be paying anyways? I get bills in the mail or via email from airports all the time.

While there have historically been some landing fees at big airports (think Los Angeles or Atlanta), our taxes to airports are generally paid through fuel tax (or some other fees like on land for hangars).  Landing fees at small (or medium) airports have been almost nonexistent which has always been a great thing for aviation here imo.  We do (all benefactors and users) obviously need to pay for the airports, but user fees really rankle our senses - especially if they are imposed for touch and goes, low approaches, and are using our faa mandated adsb data for a commercial company to profit from.  In the end, we need to pay for the airports, but the fuel tax is a little more invisible and the landing fees offer a lot more to complain about.

[DXB]

5 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

As someone accustomed to paying landing fees at every airport (including my home airport), are these fees you should be paying anyways? I get bills in the mail or via email from airports all the time.

Speaking on behalf of every American GA pilot , we are not accustomed to it in the US and are enthusiastic about not becoming accustomed to it.  

[Sue Bon]

26 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

While there have historically been some landing fees at big airports (think Los Angeles or Atlanta), our taxes to airports are generally paid through fuel tax (or some other fees like on land for hangars).  Landing fees at small (or medium) airports have been almost nonexistent which has always been a great thing for aviation here imo.  We do (all benefactors and users) obviously need to pay for the airports, but user fees really rankle our senses - especially if they are imposed for touch and goes, low approaches, and are using our faa mandated adsb data for a commercial company to profit from.  In the end, we need to pay for the airports, but the fuel tax is a little more invisible and the landing fees offer a lot more to complain about.

Yeah... sorry... I do realise those guys are completely out of line. I was just wondering if they are providing a service or something, or if it's a rip-off scheme. 

[exM20K]

Rest Assured: Million Dollar Mark is On It!

Of course, any discussion of this issue with former Administrator Michael Whitaker is not going to produce much.

-dan

[Will.iam]

44 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

Yeah... sorry... I do realise those guys are completely out of line. I was just wondering if they are providing a service or something, or if it's a rip-off scheme. 

I feel it’s a rip off scheme especially if i do not use their service. At KDTO for example there are 2 FBO and there used to be free transit parking in front of the tower. It’s a bone of contention when i want to pickup someone that comes to the airport and does not use their facility in anyway shape or form for them to come out and expect a fee from me. It’s the equivalent of going to a restaurant and self parking in the parking lot but i still have to pay a valet person?!?! No if i didn’t use their valet then I don’t pay. The FBO doesn’t own that tarmac the tax payers do and for a FBO company to come in and then claim that part as theirs to charge a fee is wrong. Now if they build a new complex and new concrete in front of their business and you park there sure. But it would be like me setting up a toll fee in front of my property on the road that goes in front of my house when the tax payers paid for the road already. It’s not mine to charge for nor is it the FBO’s to charge for either. 

[takair]

I’ve been hit by the fees when I’ve landed someplace and I’ve paid those.  I’ve been hit by the fees when I’ve done an approach someplace and not landed.  I complain and they have always been reversed.  I suspect in this case ADS-B works in my favor, since I can prove I never stopped….  We had one local airport who stopped having an attendant and went to Vector.  I’ve only randomly received bills…and they are not on the list above….

I think the frustration is fees on fees….and our inability to decode what is a legitimate bill for the upkeep up an airport or simply a bill to line someone’s pockets.  At a minimum, one would expect the fees to be posted in facilities directories and flight planning apps….and they should identify who will send the invoice and how they determine an operation.  Like all, I fear this will become out of control.

[Sue Bon]

7 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

I feel it’s a rip off scheme especially if i do not use their service. At KDTO for example there are 2 FBO and there used to be free transit parking in front of the tower. It’s a bone of contention when i want to pickup someone that comes to the airport and does not use their facility in anyway shape or form for them to come out and expect a fee from me. It’s the equivalent of going to a restaurant and self parking in the parking lot but i still have to pay a valet person?!?! No if i didn’t use their valet then I don’t pay. The FBO doesn’t own that tarmac the tax payers do and for a FBO company to come in and then claim that part as theirs to charge a fee is wrong. Now if they build a new complex and new concrete in front of their business and you park there sure. But it would be like me setting up a toll fee in front of my property on the road that goes in front of my house when the tax payers paid for the road already. It’s not mine to charge for nor is it the FBO’s to charge for either. 

Oh, wow. Yikes. Yeah, that is bad. When I was talking about the landing fees I get, those come from the airports themselves, not a company that happens to be at the airport. Totally different animals. Those Vector Airport guys are jerks. 

[KSMooniac]

1 hour ago, Sue Bon said:

Oh, wow. Yikes. Yeah, that is bad. When I was talking about the landing fees I get, those come from the airports themselves, not a company that happens to be at the airport. Totally different animals. Those Vector Airport guys are jerks. 

It's even more insidious... Vector is not "at" any of these airports.  They're a third party extortion scheme.

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

It's even more insidious... Vector is not "at" any of these airports.  They're a third party extortion scheme.

Yeah, it's a pretty foolproof scheme, too.  They contact airport 'authorities' and basically ask if they'd like to have more revenue without lifting a finger.  Sounds 'too good to be true' but, unfortunately, it is true!  They use various means (ADSB, cameras, whatever 'evidence' they can get) to 'prove' you were at the airport.  Then send you a bill, pocket a hefty fee and send the rest to the airport; instant revenue for the airport without them having to do anything but sign their contract!

[Igor_U]

1 hour ago, Sue Bon said:

 Those Vector Airport guys are jerks. 

Actually they are not. They are subcontracted by different airports around the country to collect their landing fees, nothing else. To me it's irrelevant if letter with bill comes from them or airport i landed at. I only got a bill recently for being at Santa Monica (KSMO) which i know it has nominal fee and I was expecting it. I believe the fee was for Take-off (?) which I found strange but I would need to check.

Problem for some people, I suspect for is using ADS-B data for collecting but to me it's irrelevant. It similar as collecting toll on some  roads here using cameras. Believe me, it's much better and efficient then stopping and dropping quarters in the baskets. And you can't get ambushed like Sonny in Godfather... 

[jetdriven]

Vector has even been charging people for low approaches, and some  have been charged for just flying over the airport. And when they complain about the fee, they said contact the airport, but  the airport says contact Vector.  
I’m not sure if they have the ability to place a lien on the aircraft.

[Rwsavory]

If they start putting liens on airplanes they are inviting litigation. For the relatively small amount of money involved I doubt they would risk it.

[DXB]

50 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

If they start putting liens on airplanes they are inviting litigation. For the relatively small amount of money involved I doubt they would risk it.

They do send out notices threatening liens.  Their CEO then claimed on a fb group that they have never actually placed a lien. One might then simply throw away their bill?  They don't sound responsive when folks receive erroneous charges (e.g. for a low approach or simply flying over the field).    I do wonder if any airports have used the data to place liens - perhaps not if you believe their claim of a 99.6% collection rate.  

[DXB]

In related news, other abuses of ads-b data are already well underway:

(1) Feeding data to clients for "noise abatement investigation" and various other uses....This company collaborates with Vector Aircraft Systems and probably feeds them some of the bogus data used to bill aircraft owners.

https://virtower.com/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1ci_MrzpIAmExGNZlh8dbU3N9_NloOZKTEwpl0g76mfbtIpqHf9guy-cE_aem_PbnF3U4euuclz6ZE92ST1w

(2) Generating estimates of your carbon footprint from ads-b data, then trying to sell you offsets that you buy voluntarily as "a responsible citizen."  You can plug in your tail number and get an "estimate" for your bird.  

https://climate.aero/en/c/about-us/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR03w8WKDlAh4BIDKUOMxf-jfZOj1yZF4j_Wbb_w267FIg1hGnlnoBKYixg_aem_ssao-VjBHzE-Mc1VAso3QA

We all know where this is going.  I would consider myself an environmentalist, but #2 makes me want to run my mixture full rich at all times.  

[Will.iam]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Yeah, it's a pretty foolproof scheme, too.  They contact airport 'authorities' and basically ask if they'd like to have more revenue without lifting a finger.  Sounds 'too good to be true' but, unfortunately, it is true!  They use various means (ADSB, cameras, whatever 'evidence' they can get) to 'prove' you were at the airport.  Then send you a bill, pocket a hefty fee and send the rest to the airport; instant revenue for the airport without them having to do anything but sign their contract!

If the airport is privately funded i could see that but charging for an airport that was paid for by tax payers dollars and then u want a fee because you setup a camera is theft and should be a felony since it involves federal resources. And if I’m flying a cross country flight and half a dozen airports start charging me fees  when I didn’t land there I’m not going to pay. 

[DXB]

10 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

If the airport is privately funded i could see that but charging for an airport that was paid for by tax payers dollars and then u want a fee because you setup a camera is theft and should be a felony since it involves federal resources. And if I’m flying a cross country flight and half a dozen airports start charging me fees  when I didn’t land there I’m not going to pay. 

I  have no opinion about the legality, but it's certainly happening: 

https://generalaviationnews.com/2024/09/07/florida-airports-prepare-to-impose-landing-fees/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR29UBz49FdS8dE8wE52i_Gt6PdqfDN6kFTZs8i4OLMTHdAO3jgSrxmKXOU_aem_E_Z3vEt_d7fwGvKSAn_Y9w

I think AOPA showed up to the city council meeting about this one but to no avail:

https://www.aroundosceola.com/news/kissimmees-airport-start-charging-landing-fees-nov-1

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Yeah... sorry... I do realise those guys are completely out of line. I was just wondering if they are providing a service or something, or if it's a rip-off scheme. 

I was in a meeting with a local airport manager recently, and just saw a communication from another.   The airport managers see this as a vital tool to help keep their airport open in the face of increased cuts to funding and grants, etc., especially at the state level.   At least one of the busy GA airports in the Phoenix area has started using this to track, at the moment, commercial traffic for assessment of existing fee structures.    Many busy GA airports in the US get federal grants based on the number of operations, so being able to accurately track that is beneficial to the airport and may not involve any fees to users.

There's only one airport in AZ that I'm aware of that is using it to collect fees, and they've made an exemption to anyone who buys even 1 gallon of fuel at their pump.   They're a smaller airport who gets their grants based on the number of aircraft based there rather than operations, and their expenses were starting to get dominated by traffic from the large flight schools who do numerous touch and goes and never stop.   Since the big schools around here have bulk agreements with fuel vendors on their fields, when they go somewhere else, they won't buy fuel there.   Evidently they got tired of expenses for things like replacing struck runway lights, etc., with no benefit from the traffic.  

So the service itself seems to be useful to the airport managers, and since they're the customers to the system it seems unlikely to go away.   Whether and how it is used to collect fees from Part 91 GA folks seems to be TBD, at least around here. 

[Will.iam]

49 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I was in a meeting with a local airport manager recently, and just saw a communication from another.   The airport managers see this as a vital tool to help keep their airport open in the face of increased cuts to funding and grants, etc., especially at the state level.   At least one of the busy GA airports in the Phoenix area has started using this to track, at the moment, commercial traffic for assessment of existing fee structures.    Many busy GA airports in the US get federal grants based on the number of operations, so being able to accurately track that is beneficial to the airport and may not involve any fees to users.

There's only one airport in AZ that I'm aware of that is using it to collect fees, and they've made an exemption to anyone who buys even 1 gallon of fuel at their pump.   They're a smaller airport who gets their grants based on the number of aircraft based there rather than operations, and their expenses were starting to get dominated by traffic from the large flight schools who do numerous touch and goes and never stop.   Since the big schools around here have bulk agreements with fuel vendors on their fields, when they go somewhere else, they won't buy fuel there.   Evidently they got tired of expenses for things like replacing struck runway lights, etc., with no benefit from the traffic.  

So the service itself seems to be useful to the airport managers, and since they're the customers to the system it seems unlikely to go away.   Whether and how it is used to collect fees from Part 91 GA folks seems to be TBD, at least around here. 

Well since the system tracks airplanes via adsb and photo, not to hard to have video of runways lights to tie together who damaged the lights and bill them for it. 

[DXB]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

 Whether and how it is used to collect fees from Part 91 GA folks seems to be TBD, at least around here. 

It would be good to exert influence on these inevitable determinations, particularly in relation to use of ads-b data well outside the scope of its stated purpose,  through all legal channels.  Otherwise, I can assure you we will not like the outcomes....

[dkkim73]

Airports are infrastructure.

If we are all paying for things we use, and only that, why I look forward to the generous net inflow to me of funds from all the crap I subsidize but don't currently use as an upper middle class American taxpayer (without a lot of shelter schemes). 

Vector are a bunch of parasites. **** them and the horse they rode in on. 

It's a clever-seeming internet scheme, and those little hyenas are probably making a few bucks, instead of doing something useful like launching rockets, building houses, defending the country, or curing cancer. All these people think they're smart, maybe even think it's Schumpeteresque creative destruction. 

Occasionally some of these profiteers (and they go back to some of the LBO days) get shamed publicly. There are other outcomes as have been in the news recently. 

Fight these asshats. Throw caltrops in their path. Bankrupt this crappy little company. If they're listening, I say "Get a job". 

Ask me how I feel. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

23 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Airports are infrastructure.

If we are all paying for things we use, and only that, why I look forward to the generous net inflow to me of funds from all the crap I subsidize but don't currently use as an upper middle class American taxpayer (without a lot of shelter schemes). 

Vector are a bunch of parasites. **** them and the horse they rode in on. 

It's a clever-seeming internet scheme, and those little hyenas are probably making a few bucks, instead of doing something useful like launching rockets, building houses, defending the country, or curing cancer. All these people think they're smart, maybe even think it's Schumpeteresque creative destruction. 

Occasionally some of these profiteers (and they go back to some of the LBO days) get shamed publicly. There are other outcomes as have been in the news recently. 

Fight these asshats. Throw caltrops in their path. Bankrupt this crappy little company. If they're listening, I say "Get a job". 

Ask me how I feel. 

 

The server doesn’t let me hit both the “laugh” and the “like” button at the same time, but I want you to know, you deserve both!

[piperdown85]

Apparently only 17 of the Vector airports bill small part 91 aircraft

5C1

87N

ACY

AGC

ASE

BDR

BED

DAL

HWV

ISP

JPX

MTP

RYY

SAD

SAT

SMO

TOA

Edited Tuesday at 03:16 PM by piperdown85

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, piperdown85 said:

Apparently only 17 of the Vector airports bill small part 91 aircraft

5C1

87N

ACY

AGC

ASE

BDR

BED

DAL

HWV

ISP

JPX

MTP

RYY

SAD

SAT

SMO

TOA

SAD is the AZ airport that I described, that will waive the fee with any fuel purchase, even 1 gallon.