G100UL - fuel leak

[redbaron1982]

21 minutes ago, larryb said:

This is my plane one week after taking about 15 gallons in each side. The seeps are not new but the result of the seep is stripped paint. I’d be very wary of using this fuel if your tanks are not perfect.

Not good

[bigmo]

28 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Ouch,

We might just use MEK as a fuel; similar results on the paint... 

Or as a less costly stripper for a new paint job.

Sorry to make light of the situation. Hard to believe we can’t run MOGAS, but this is ok…

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

The Baron that leaked had bladders, but they were aging and it is not definitive that the issues were caused by the G100UL.   My personal suspicion is that the G100UL aggravated the aging issues and pushed it over the edge.   That's just an opinion, though.

Time will tell.  Hoping the bladders outlast me and the next owner.  Will post a few pics during the install process.  Looking forward to it.  

[Immelman]

Larry - thank you, and I'm sorry that's happened.

I think that's going to sideline me from G100UL. I've got a couple of very small seeps. Within Mooney service manual limits for airworthiness, but it would appear this will invite some paint stripping. My paint isn't the best, but it is sticking to the airplane with those seeps.

[IvanP]

Based on Larry's pictures, it seems that the new fuel can double as an effective paint stripper  . Small seeps around the fuel drains appear to be fairly common. In fact, I noticed one last week on my plane. That does not make me feel very good putting G100UL in my recently painted plane. 

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, Immelman said:

Larry - thank you, and I'm sorry that's happened.

I think that's going to sideline me from G100UL. I've got a couple of very small seeps. Within Mooney service manual limits for airworthiness, but it would appear this will invite some paint stripping. My paint isn't the best, but it is sticking to the airplane with those seeps.

I have some significant seeps now (thus the incoming bladders).  The running residue is fairly gunked up in a few areas.  But totally agree, the paint has remained stuck.  I'm actually wondering how I'll remove the residue without removing the paint.  It doesn't come off easily if it builds up.  

[McMooney]

hmm, if it evaporates as cleanly as normal gas, i really could use my wings stripped

[A64Pilot]

A problem with introducing something new is that often as much as you try it’s not possible to test for every possible interaction.

I’m not saying that the Gami fuel has or will cause any problems, perhaps for example the seeming new leaks are actually from the change in weather.

But while I can’t quote specific examples off of the top of my head other than from the Military but it’s really not at all uncommon for a new fuel or oil etc once it gets into the field to cause problems in a small percentage of aircraft, especially when they are operated in environmental conditions that are unusual or who knows what all the possible combinations of who knows what are.

The only way to honestly know is to field something and cross your fingers.

I was listening to a class sometime ago where a fuel cell manufacturer claimed that the aeromatics in some auto fuel was causing problems with fuel cells for instance.

Edited Thursday at 02:47 AM by A64Pilot

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I have some significant seeps now (thus the incoming bladders).  The running residue is fairly gunked up in a few areas.  But totally agree, the paint has remained stuck.  I'm actually wondering how I'll remove the residue without removing the paint.  It doesn't come off easily if it builds up.  

In order of increasing strength, you can try:   more avgas, if that doesn't work, then mineral spirits, if that doesn't work then acetone, then MEK.   Somewhere in there you could also try brake cleaner.    As you move up toward the more powerful solvents you just have to be careful to not leave it on the paint too long.

Try to keep acetone or MEK from migrating through cracks or joints into where sealant might be.    You might not care too much about that if you have bladders going in.

The dye gunk is cleanable, it sometimes just takes a little effort depending on how long it's been there.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

In order of increasing strength, you can try:   more avgas, if that doesn't work, then mineral spirits, if that doesn't work then acetone, then MEK.   Somewhere in there you could also try brake cleaner.    As you move up toward the more powerful solvents you just have to be careful to not leave it on the paint too long.

Try to keep acetone or MEK from migrating through cracks or joints into where sealant might be.    You might not care too much about that if you have bladders going in.

The dye gunk is cleanable, it sometimes just takes a little effort depending on how long it's been there.

I’ve tried everything but brake cleaner.  It’s not the blue stains: it’s the gunky sticky brown build up.  I’m hoping to have some paint touch up after the bladders are in.  Appreciate the recommendations.  

[Shiroyuki]

7 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Not good

That's a big yikes...

I'm not a fan of gami selling 600$ STC to buy their fuel. Now they are potentially causing leaks and definitely stripping paint when leaking, I will stick with 100LL...

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

That's a big yikes...

I'm not a fan of gami selling 600$ STC to buy their fuel. Now they are potentially causing leaks and definitely stripping paint when leaking, I will stick with 100LL...

Before I had my tanks sealed, I had 100LL stains on the bottom of the wing that I couldn't remove easily.  The same would go for the G100UL.  Bottom line, if your tanks are leaking, they should be resealed.  If not, then the staining is comparable and really can't be seen unless you got under the wing and looked.

Regarding the STC, I'm not sure what GAMI will do in the long run, but if you were based at an airport that just got G100UL the STC cost $0.  For those of us at nearby airports, we got 25 gallons of fuel free, so that gave a pretty good discount on the STC cost.

Face it.  One way or another 100LL is eventually going the way of the dinosaur.  With the unleaded fuel, you should have a much cleaner engine internally, which should lead to longer TBO times. 

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, GeeBee said:

As for lead, as one doctor said to me, anything you touch with your skin is at your liver in 10 minute

Not necessarily anything, but definitely most solvents penetrate the skin in minutes.

[Jeff Uphoff]

14 hours ago, GeeBee said:

As for lead, as one doctor said to me, anything you touch with your skin is at your liver in 10 minutes.

As to lead exposure, there is a growing body of evidence that adults who were children in the 60's and 70's are showing up with adverse levels of lead which many are saying is part of the growing Alzheimers, dementia and MS rates. Telcom workers and plumbers being the worst.

I had a lead-melting kit as a kid--made soldiers and whatnot with it using molds. Yay me?

(I was at a debate once between G. Gordon Liddy and Timothy Leary, and Leary quipped that senility was the most psychedelic experience yet. Perhaps I should consider that a bright side?)

--Up.

[AJ88V]

1 hour ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

I had a lead-melting kit as a kid--made soldiers and whatnot with it using molds. Yay me?

Me too!  Hard to believe it in the modern context.  Of course, the kids working the the government today are probably trying to ban lead in pencils because they don't know the difference!

(BTW, nice to see your name, Jeff.  I keep running across friends from the old Mooney mail list.  Glad you're still flying, and a much higher end plane!!)

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I’ve tried everything but brake cleaner.  It’s not the blue stains: it’s the gunky sticky brown build up.  I’m hoping to have some paint touch up after the bladders are in.  Appreciate the recommendations.  

Sometimes the brown stuff is just accumulated blue dye that's been there a long time.   Good luck with it!

[Shiroyuki]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

Before I had my tanks sealed, I had 100LL stains on the bottom of the wing that I couldn't remove easily.  The same would go for the G100UL.  Bottom line, if your tanks are leaking, they should be resealed.  If not, then the staining is comparable and really can't be seen unless you got under the wing and looked.

Regarding the STC, I'm not sure what GAMI will do in the long run, but if you were based at an airport that just got G100UL the STC cost $0.  For those of us at nearby airports, we got 25 gallons of fuel free, so that gave a pretty good discount on the STC cost.

Face it.  One way or another 100LL is eventually going the way of the dinosaur.  With the unleaded fuel, you should have a much cleaner engine internally, which should lead to longer TBO times. 

Those pictures are not same kind of deposit 100LL will leave, it literally act like a paint stripper. I will stick with my 100LL until all the issue with G100UL is sorted out.

I used to be a firm supporter for unleaded avgas, but there is so many debacle going on with G100UL many no one know if it is true. I'm not very eager to test them out with my money. Also not a fan on how GAMI dodge those questions and avoid critical issue their fuel have, feels scummy.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

(I was at a debate once between G. Gordon Liddy and Timothy Leary, and Leary quipped that senility was the most psychedelic experience yet. Perhaps I should consider that a bright side?)

If that was at Penn State in 1990, Leary was only 70 at the time, and Liddy even younger.  They just THOUGHT they were old.

[Fly Boomer]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

In order of increasing strength, you can try:   more avgas, if that doesn't work, then mineral spirits, if that doesn't work then acetone, then MEK.   Somewhere in there you could also try brake cleaner.

And when those don't work, switch to abrasives.

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

I had a lead-melting kit as a kid--made soldiers and whatnot with it using molds. Yay me?

 

BIG difference between metallic lead (sinkers, soldiers, bullets) and soluble lead.

Metallic lead is not skin absorbable.  You need to ingest or inhale it.  Soluble lead compounds, like TEL in fuel is very skin absorbable.

[AJ88V]

36 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

BIG difference between metallic lead (sinkers, soldiers, bullets) and soluble lead.

Metallic lead is not skin absorbable.  You need to ingest or inhale it.  Soluble lead compounds, like TEL in fuel is very skin absorbable.

Yeah, but every gun range I've gone too promotes washing your hands and face after shooting.  Always assumed they were worried about handling lead, but maybe it's the propellant combustion products.

[Pinecone]

Two reasons.  One is so you do not eat and ingest the lead.

Also, primers contain lead styphnate, which decomposes into lead oxide, is expelled from the barrel as lead fume, can also be ingested or inhaled. Lead oxide is also skin absorbable.

[bonal]

I guess it wasn’t so crazy when I expressed my concerns about the new fuel in the Kalifornia thread.  AOPA Barron had issues with the fuel which they passed off as the Bladders being old but I don’t recall the one containing the LL as having any problems.  Since I have bladders in mine it makes me wonder.  

[exM20K]

On 12/12/2024 at 2:03 PM, Pinecone said:

BIG difference between metallic lead (sinkers, soldiers, bullets) and soluble lead.

Metallic lead is not skin absorbable.  You need to ingest or inhale it.  Soluble lead compounds, like TEL in fuel is very skin absorbable.

This is an important distinction.  I work in a potentially high-lead environment, and we test our staff regularly.  The only elevated lead levels we have seen are in people who do reloading at home.  I suspect they are aspirating it when they tumble or otherwise handle brass.

One had to be sent back to remedial training when he or she put little packages of condiments into an old ammo case box. 
 

Metallic lead is not generally absorbed through the skin, but rather by rubbing eyes, nose, touching food, and the worst: touching cigarettes and vapes.  You guys that made lead soldiers should probably be ok :-) 

-dan 

[Jeff Uphoff]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:32 AM, Fly Boomer said:

If that was at Penn State in 1990, Leary was only 70 at the time, and Liddy even younger.  They just THOUGHT they were old.

Ha!

It was at Radford University in fall '91 or spring '92.

--Up.