Jepp

[Pinecone]

Point is, Jepp is not a monopoly.  You had a choice of picking equipment that uses only Jepp or one that uses Jepp and Garmin.

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Point is, Jepp is not a monopoly.  You had a choice of picking equipment that uses only Jepp or one that uses Jepp and Garmin.

The Avidyne really is that much better. 

[Hank]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Point is, Jepp is not a monopoly.  You had a choice of picking equipment that uses only Jepp or one that uses Jepp and Garmin.

 

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

The Avidyne really is that much better. 

Avidyne apparently uses neither.

[FlyingScot]

A different but tangential question regarding databases - 

If you have both Jepp and Garmin current avionics NAV database subscriptions, can you load both current databases into your navigator (e.g. a GTN750Xi) and then (somehow?) select between them, or can you only load/use one of these at a time? Or is it possible to switch between versions of, say, approach plates like you can in Foreflight?
 

Thanks in advance!

[bigmo]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:01 AM, KSMooniac said:

At this point we should be able to download nav data directly from an FAA server for free or very low cost. Pipe dream, I know, because they would probably get the same flunkies that made the Obamacare website to make it, and it would cost billions.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk
 

You can download the complete FAA data now:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/NASR_Subscription/

I do this for a living, so I'll warn you without significant time and effort, this will not be a super easy tool to reference. Yes, this is the source data that commercial vendors will use or their own navigation data (for US data). But, it IS all there. If you want to explore this data, I'd suggest you start with a tool that can read AIXM and choose the 5.1 option. There will never be a way to ingest data into your navigator beyond what you have now - that's a choice made by your navigator and has nothing to do with the vendors supplying navigation data. But, this would allow you to easily compare your data and authoritative FAA content. 

This will require a little peek into your navigator's AFMS - this will tell you what you can do and cannot. For my era Garmin, I can operate legally in IMC with an expired database for terminal and enroute. I do have to verify my data and the current FAA data (easy with the NASAR data) agree. Do I do this? Not a chance. I pay my annual subscriptions as (dare I say) it's a bargain in aviation terms for what it provides for me. I try not to look, but I think my Jepp costs are around $700-800 annually. Knowing the enormity of work that goes into this data validation (ever AIRAC cycle), it's frankly a bargain.

Avidyne users, you might want to read your AFMS. I've only seen a couple, but both prohibit any any IFR use on expired database (including terminal and enroute). Garmin may have started doing this too, but the older Garmin navigators do grant you that option if you do the homework. 

 

 

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

10 minutes ago, bigmo said:

You can download the complete FAA data now:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/NASR_Subscription/

I do this for a living, so I'll warn you without significant time and effort, this will not be a super easy tool to reference. Yes, this is the source data that commercial vendors will use or their own navigation data (for US data). But, it IS all there. If you want to explore this data, I'd suggest you start with a tool that can read AIXM and choose the 5.1 option. There will never be a way to ingest data into your navigator beyond what you have now - that's a choice made by your navigator and has nothing to do with the vendors supplying navigation data. But, this would allow you to easily compare your data and authoritative FAA content. 

This will require a little peek into your navigator's AFMS - this will tell you what you can do and cannot. For my era Garmin, I can operate legally in IMC with an expired database for terminal and enroute. I do have to verify my data and the current FAA data (easy with the NASAR data) agree. Do I do this? Not a chance. I pay my annual subscriptions as (dare I say) it's a bargain in aviation terms for what it provides for me. I try not to look, but I think my Jepp costs are around $700-800 annually. Knowing the enormity of work that goes into this data validation (ever AIRAC cycle), it's frankly a bargain.

Avidyne users, you might want to read your AFMS. I've only seen a couple, but both prohibit any any IFR use on expired database (including terminal and enroute). Garmin may have started doing this too, but the older Garmin navigators do grant you that option if you do the homework. 

 

 

 

 

 

If I ever get to retire, I will write that app.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, bigmo said:

For my era Garmin, I can operate legally in IMC with an expired database for terminal and enroute. I do have to verify my data and the current FAA data (easy with the NASAR data) agree. . .

Avidyne users, you might want to read your AFMS. I've only seen a couple, but both prohibit any any IFR use on expired database (including terminal and enroute). . . the older Garmin navigators do grant you that option if you do the homework. 

My 430W allows use of expired databases. It's easy to check an approach plate or two, just log into AOPA or open your favorite EFB, then look at the approach(es) in question--the date it was last revised is conveniently printed along the edge. As long as that date is on or before the expiration date of your expired database, you can use it.

I've only done this once or twice before filing a flight plan, and didn't need to use the verified approach, but it made my trip a legal /G flight.

Now that I finally have a laptop, I carry the little blue Jepp adapter in the bag and can update the database in a McDonald's parking lot, or inside Chick-Fil-A if necessary. (As long as I don't have to purchase an extension; some things I just don't do on open connections!)

As soon as Avidyne approves their autopilot for C models, I'm leaving the Garmin world and putting in new TV screens . . . . .

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, FlyingScot said:

A different but tangential question regarding databases - 

If you have both Jepp and Garmin current avionics NAV database subscriptions, can you load both current databases into your navigator (e.g. a GTN750Xi) and then (somehow?) select between them, or can you only load/use one of these at a time? Or is it possible to switch between versions of, say, approach plates like you can in Foreflight?
 

Thanks in advance!

I don’t know the answer to your switcheroo question, but why? really wondering.
 

The only difference between the content of the nav databases (at least the North American ones) I’ve ever been aware of was the unavailability of the LOC version of ILS OR LOC approaches in the Jepp database in some units and that no longer appears to be the case. What benefit do you see to having both? And of switching back and forth?

If you are not talking about the nav database but the chart option, where there are some content and form differences, I still don’t see why one would want to pay for both and switch back and forth. Even in ForeFlight. I do have both but looking at one or the other is mostly for instructional purposes, and 99% of that is on the ground  

 

[tony]

On 11/12/2024 at 12:45 PM, EricJ said:

Yes, I said as much, and was just pointing out that that data exists already, in forms that are legally usable for navigation, we just can't use them in the in-panel boxes for some unknown reason.   The differences between the databases can't be big, so the value-add by Garmin or Jeppesen is not very much.

because you need an LOA.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.350.pdf

Edited 23 hours ago by tony

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, tony said:

because you need an LOA.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.350.pdf

I just scanned through that document. I don't see what it has to do with where you get your NAVDATA.

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:16 AM, KSMooniac said:

Rich, what do they charge for a year of nav data only?  I'm still waffling on panel/autopilot upgrade path and ongoing subscription costs are going to factor heavily in the Garmin vs. Dynon vs. Aspen debate.  I have dual GNS WAAS currently, so an IFD swap is enticing.

On my last airplane I had an Avidyne IFD550. At the constant requests from owners on Avidynelive.com, Avidyne worked diligently with Jepp to get the cost of subscriptions down. The last couple years I was paying $299/year for Nav Data. Then Jepp extended that Nav only price to GNS530 or 430 owners. Then Garmin changed their Nav only pricing to $299 per year. Competition is a good thing.

[tony]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I just scanned through that document. I don't see what it has to do with where you get your NAVDATA.

maybe that's the wrong document.  In order to shoot a GPS approach using your GPS navigator, the database needs to conform to DO-200 and have an LOA from the FAA authorizing you to use that database in that specific FMS.   To get the LOA the GPS manufacture has to demonstrate to the FAA the GPS will function as intended.  Sometimes there are undocumented features that pop up, such as instead of making a 90 degree turn to the left, it makes a 270 degree turn to the right.....  

Its just an integration step that needs to happen.  that's why Garmin and Avidyne specify where their database comes from.  I'm sure if you look through your documentation you'll find the LOA.

[N201MKTurbo]

17 minutes ago, tony said:

maybe that's the wrong document.  In order to shoot a GPS approach using your GPS navigator, the database needs to conform to DO-200 and have an LOA from the FAA authorizing you to use that database in that specific FMS.   To get the LOA the GPS manufacture has to demonstrate to the FAA the GPS will function as intended.  Sometimes there are undocumented features that pop up, such as instead of making a 90 degree turn to the left, it makes a 270 degree turn to the right.....  

Its just an integration step that needs to happen.  that's why Garmin and Avidyne specify where their database comes from.  I'm sure if you look through your documentation you'll find the LOA.

I actually found it the other day on the avidyne website where they had the evidence (documents) that prove they validated to a particular database format. It seems that as long as the data conformed to that specification you would be good. The FAA may want some evidence that you were conforming to the specification.

[N201MKTurbo]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

My 430W allows use of expired databases. It's easy to check an approach plate or two, just log into AOPA or open your favorite EFB, then look at the approach(es) in question--the date it was last revised is conveniently printed along the edge. As long as that date is on or before the expiration date of your expired database, you can use it.

I've only done this once or twice before filing a flight plan, and didn't need to use the verified approach, but it made my trip a legal /G flight.

Now that I finally have a laptop, I carry the little blue Jepp adapter in the bag and can update the database in a McDonald's parking lot, or inside Chick-Fil-A if necessary. (As long as I don't have to purchase an extension; some things I just don't do on open connections!)

As soon as Avidyne approves their autopilot for C models, I'm leaving the Garmin world and putting in new TV screens . . . . .

This document says you cannot do what you are doing.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/RDs/07-02-198_Use_of_Charts_to_Validate_NAV_Database_Information.pdf

[N201MKTurbo]

More good stuff:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/FAA-H-8083-16B_Chapter_6.pdf

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

My 430W allows use of expired databases. It's easy to check an approach plate or two, just log into AOPA or open your favorite EFB, then look at the approach(es) in question--the date it was last revised is conveniently printed along the edge. As long as that date is on or before the expiration date of your expired database, you can use it.

Well, kinda. Here's the Limitations. I'm not sure how you would verify that each waypoint in the expired database is accurate. What's your current approved data source?

And it looks like an outright prohibition on flying approaches from an expired database. 

Do you have an AFMS update which changes this?

 

[KSMooniac]

I believe there was an interpretation years ago that allowed one to verify that *the* waypoints for their particular flight and approach were current, which did cover use of an expired database so long as the waypoints in that particular expired database were still current/not changed.  This could be done with a review of current charts and plates, noting revision levels and such, and comparing to what was in the database.  I don't believe there was any expectation that every single data point in an expired database was OK, just ones needed for a particular flight.

If you routinely fly only a handful of routes and never stray, this might be feasible for a frugal owner.  But the hassle increases exponentially very quickly for those that like to go all over.

[kortopates]

I believe there was an interpretation years ago that allowed one to verify that *the* waypoints for their particular flight and approach were current, which did cover use of an expired database so long as the waypoints in that particular expired database were still current/not changed.  This could be done with a review of current charts and plates, noting revision levels and such, and comparing to what was in the database.  I don't believe there was any expectation that every single data point in an expired database was OK, just ones needed for a particular flight.
If you routinely fly only a handful of routes and never stray, this might be feasible for a frugal owner.  But the hassle increases exponentially very quickly for those that like to go all over.

If you’re referring to the AIM it’s always said that and provides a much broader interpretation but it’s really irrelevant since your AFMS trumps the AIM and every Garmin AFMS since the GNS models had said you can only use an expired database for enroute and terminal mode only after verifying each waypoint of data you’ll need which really isn’t practical - and it’s not talking about approach plates. Garmin has always required an up to date database to use it to fly rnav approaches. (conventional approaches are left out since you don’t need a GPS procedure to fly them but most of us actually do anyway for the DME fixes).


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[PeteMc]

17 hours ago, bigmo said:

Garmin may have started doing this too, but the older Garmin navigators do grant you that option if you do the homework. 

Garmin still let's you verify each waypoint if you're using an expired DB. But as you said, it would be a royal pain to do. 

 

[FlyingScot]

7 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I don’t know the answer to your switcheroo question, but why? really wondering.
 

The only difference between the content of the nav databases (at least the North American ones) I’ve ever been aware of was the unavailability of the LOC version of ILS OR LOC approaches in the Jepp database in some units and that no longer appears to be the case. What benefit do you see to having both? And of switching back and forth?

If you are not talking about the nav database but the chart option, where there are some content and form differences, I still don’t see why one would want to pay for both and switch back and forth. Even in ForeFlight. I do have both but looking at one or the other is mostly for instructional purposes, and 99% of that is on the ground  

 

Just curious, really. I have both datasets on Foreflight, and I do find it useful sometimes to switch between the two different versions of an approach plate.  I was wondering if the same was possible with the Nav system if both databases were loaded. 

[midlifeflyer]

33 minutes ago, FlyingScot said:

Just curious, really. I have both datasets on Foreflight, and I do find it useful sometimes to switch between the two different versions of an approach plate.  I was wondering if the same was possible with the Nav system if both databases were loaded. 

One might exist, but I'm not aware of any panel unit which (except during updates) holds more than one nav database, let alone allowing switching between them. Having looked at both (the Garmin trainer apps allow switching), unlike charts, there are no differences in content or presentation unless there is an error in one of them (which happens).  

 

I can kind of see it for the charts,

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

I believe there was an interpretation years ago that allowed one to verify that *the* waypoints for their particular flight and approach were current, which did cover use of an expired database so long as the waypoints in that particular expired database were still current/not changed.  This could be done with a review of current charts and plates, noting revision levels and such, and comparing to what was in the database.  I don't believe there was any expectation that every single data point in an expired database was OK, just ones needed for a particular flight.

If you routinely fly only a handful of routes and never stray, this might be feasible for a frugal owner.  But the hassle increases exponentially very quickly for those that like to go all over.

The guidance about that is is in the AIM. Keep in mind that there are two different things involved. One  is the accuracy of the location of the waypoints in the database. The other is how those waypoints line up in a particular procedure. IOW, there is a difference between verifying an approach in the database is current by comparing the series of waypoints as loaded with the series of waypoints on the chart (which the AIM says we should be doing on every approach ) with verifying that the location of the waypoints themselves is accurate. And even if the guidance is permissive, the AFMS Limitations control if they are more conservative. Like the one for Hank's 430.  

This is about the database.

1-1-17.b.2 (b) Database Requirements. The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the region of intended operation and should include the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the departure, arrival, and alternate airfields.

That broad statement is modified a bit in the following paragraphs for various operations. Table 1-1-6 provides a decent summary and illustrates the difference between the procedures and the underlying waypoint data.

The one about the charts is in Table 1-1-6 in AIM 1-1-17:

[Hank]

Yep. The green highlight says that if the approach has not been amended since the one in my expired database, it's OK to use.

I.e., if my database expired on 11/1/24, and I checked against the current approach plate in my EFB, which shows the approach was last updated 7/11/23, then I can fly that approach. 

This matches what my CFII taught me. I don't have to verify every single data point in the eastern US, only the parts that I intend to use. But I now have a laptop to travel with and do updates, so for me it's academic anyway. And my database in the G430W is good until mid-December, according to my memory from the other day.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Yep. The green highlight says that if the approach has not been amended since the one in my expired database, it's OK to use.

I.e., if my database expired on 11/1/24, and I checked against the current approach plate in my EFB, which shows the approach was last updated 7/11/23, then I can fly that approach. 

This matches what my CFII taught me. I don't have to verify every single data point in the eastern US, only the parts that I intend to use. But I now have a laptop to travel with and do updates, so for me it's academic anyway. And my database in the G430W is good until mid-December, according to my memory from the other day.

I think it's a good thing that you can now update your databases via your laptop because you miss @kortopates point: It does NOT matter if the AIM section you are relying upon (or your CFII) says it's ok...Garmin's AFM supplement OVERRULES that allowance and says it is NOT okay to use an expired database for approaches; it does NOT matter that nothing has changed (vis a vis 'last update date'). It is NOT okay to use!

[toto]

9 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I think it's a good thing that you can now update your databases via your laptop because you miss @kortopates point: It does NOT matter if the AIM section you are relying upon (or your CFII) says it's ok...Garmin's AFM supplement OVERRULES that allowance and says it is NOT okay to use an expired database for approaches; it does NOT matter that nothing has changed (vis a vis 'last update date'). It is NOT okay to use!

This was an unhappy change for those of us that went to the GTN series from an earlier Garmin navigator, but as mentioned above it was never especially practical to manually verify all waypoints anyway.

Out of curiosity, do you know offhand whether the AFMS for the GTN series requires a current database for enroute or approach operations using only ground-based nav sources?