Concerns with acquiring spares

[Barneyw]

Hi All

I would like to get a sense on what is going on with Mooney with respect to spares. 8 weeks ago I tried to order a rudder bell crank, a nose wheel trailing link bushing, flap actuator seals and a few other bits and bobs. I received exactly zero items although I did get a lot of excuses, we are finding it hard to get items manufactured, Covid, we will wait until we have enough orders, etc etc. This is frustrating to say the least and while that might be all true it seems like Mooney, the company, are either losing interest or do not have the right people in key positions. Now I might be wrong but after a grim phone call with Mooney some time ago I am convinced that all is not well at the joint. Furthermore, I'm still waiting for an email from one of the engineers ...so much for the sense of Mooney community as spun on the Mooney web site.

Given you guys are living it with Mooney I would like to know what the general feeling is and I am happy to be corrected because I would like to be wrong about the way I feel at this very moment. Having said that I cannot leave this post without asking is it time for Mooney to sell its type certificates to someone like a LASAR or similar?

Over to you.

Cheers

Barneyw 

PS I am aware of the salvage industry and have done ok so far getting some items but it's a slog to find the right part in an acceptable condition.  

 

[Shadrach]

Mooney has not been doing “well” for quite some time. I think that they are cash poor.  This has led to a more reactionary and transactional approach. They don’t seem to have much of a support strategy beyond “keeping the doors open”. Fabricating obscure parts in low quantities does not serve their current financial situation.

[tony]

My opinion of course:  The best thing that cold happen to us, the owners, is they just go out of  business.  They certainly are not supporting the owners. 

By going out of business it would put all the engineering data in the public domain.  Then people who want to make an owner produced parts would have access to the design data. 

It would also stop these ridiculous ADs that have no value.  I had to ground my 60 year old airplane, to perform an inspection on a part that should have been found in an annual.  If the the time of compliance would have said at the next 100 hour inspection.  But to ground the airplane was an emotional response, not an engineering response.

Ok I'm waiting for all the negative comments now, bring them on.......

[LANCECASPER]

48 minutes ago, Barneyw said:

Hi All

I would like to get a sense on what is going on with Mooney with respect to spares. 8 weeks ago I tried to order a rudder bell crank, a nose wheel trailing link bushing, flap actuator seals and a few other bits and bobs. I received exactly zero items although I did get a lot of excuses, we are finding it hard to get items manufactured, Covid, we will wait until we have enough orders, etc etc. This is frustrating to say the least and while that might be all true it seems like Mooney, the company, are either losing interest or do not have the right people in key positions. Now I might be wrong but after a grim phone call with Mooney some time ago I am convinced that all is not well at the joint. Furthermore, I'm still waiting for an email from one of the engineers ...so much for the sense of Mooney community as spun on the Mooney web site.

Given you guys are living it with Mooney I would like to know what the general feeling is and I am happy to be corrected because I would like to be wrong about the way I feel at this very moment. Having said that I cannot leave this post without asking is it time for Mooney to sell its type certificates to someone like a LASAR or similar?

Over to you.

Cheers

Barneyw 

PS I am aware of the salvage industry and have done ok so far getting some items but it's a slog to find the right part in an acceptable condition.  

 

This subject comes up on here every few weeks by people that stop by.

Mooney makes parts Monday through Friday every week. They have 34 employees and ship things out every day. Will the part you order be on the shelf? Probably not, although some common ones are. They are doing their best at the moment under difficult circumstances to keep 7,000 Mooneys in the air. 

As you've discovered, a rudder bell crank for a 57 year old airplane is not in stock. (It also wouldn't have been if you had placed your order 6 years ago when they were making airplanes.) When you place your order through a Mooney Service Center that part is back-ordered. If it's a part that they produce, when they have a back-order that becomes large enough to make a minimum number of that part, they do. On some parts the minimum it takes is very few. It wouldn't be cost-effective for you or them to turn out one of those parts. 

As you've also discovered, salvage parts keep the older Mooneys flying and have for many years, even while the factory had 300+ employees. Companies in the U. S. like https://baspartsales.com/ part out Mooneys and are very good to work with. 

In this link there are some recents comments from MooneyMax 2024, where Jonny Pollack, CEO spoke on a video call:

 

[LANCECASPER]

37 minutes ago, tony said:

My opinion of course:  The best thing that cold happen to us, the owners, is they just go out of  business.  They certainly are not supporting the owners. 

By going out of business it would put all the engineering data in the public domain.  Then people who want to make an owner produced parts would have access to the design data. 

It would also stop these ridiculous ADs that have no value.  I had to ground my 60 year old airplane, to perform an inspection on a part that should have been found in an annual.  If the the time of compliance would have said at the next 100 hour inspection.  But to ground the airplane was an emotional response, not an engineering response.

Ok I'm waiting for all the negative comments now, bring them on.......

How exactly would all the engineering data be put in public domain if they went out of business? Would owners break in at night and steal it? 

I'm not sure to what A.D. you're referring, but Mooney doesn't issue Airworthiness Directives, the FAA does.

You might be referring to a Service Bulletin, which Mooney does release, regarding the weights on your elevator:

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/sbm20-345A.pdf     

Then later the Service Instruction which provides you a page for your POH:

https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/sim20-145.pdf).

To this issue, they didn't have a knee-jerk reaction and ground the airplane. Step 1 was to do an inspection and if the correct weights were found, no further inspections were needed. Step 2 if you had the weights that were mentioned then a more detailed inspection was made to see if there was cracking. Finally if the cracking was found then Step 3 was to replace them.  When you look at the pictures on the Service Bulletin you can see why they were concerned. They spent resources that could have gone other places to engineer a solution for owners. Would they have been able to do that if they were out of business as you wish?

The relationship between owners and the company doesn't need to be adversarial. We all should want the same thing. The people right now at the factory could find work elsewhere, probably paying a lot more money, with better benefits. They take a lot of pride in producing parts so that owners can keep flying their Mooneys. Whenever I have the opportunity I let them know how much I appreciate what they are doing.

 

[Pinecone]

I have had to order a couple of parts that Mooney makes.  There was a lead time, but they made them and shipped them out.  A couple of things I needed, were in stock.

The big problem is those parts that they do not make in house, but are sourced from a vendor, but require Mooney to QA them to meet their PMA.   Due this and the legal agreement between the maker and Mooney, they cannot be sold to us directly.  At Mooney Max, we asked about pre-paid ordering to limit the drain on Mooney's cash.  Johnny said the problem is, the vendors have 6 - 8 week lead times, and he could not guarantee the the doors would be open to receive, QA, and ship them that far out.  But he thought they were close to some investors pumping in some cash, and they have a list the most requested parts and they will get ordered ASAP.

And no, the IP from Mooney does not go into the public domain because they go out of business.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Barneyw said:

Given you guys are living it with Mooney I would like to know what the general feeling is and I am happy to be corrected because I would like to be wrong about the way I feel at this very moment. Having said that I cannot leave this post without asking is it time for Mooney to sell its type certificates to someone like a LASAR or similar?

My personal view is that the easiest route to maintenance for difficult to find parts is to leverage the FAA Owner Produced Parts process.    Like many things, people sometimes tend to make this a lot harder than it needs to be, but it does provide a path to maintain aging or unsupported aircraft.

[NewMoon]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

This subject comes up on here every few weeks by people that stop by.

Mooney makes parts Monday through Friday every week. They have 34 employees and ship things out every day. Will the part you order be on the shelf? Probably not, although some common ones are. They are doing their best at the moment under difficult circumstances to keep 7,000 Mooneys in the air. 

As you've discovered, a rudder bell crank for a 57 year old airplane is not in stock. (It also wouldn't have been if you had placed your order 6 years ago when they were making airplanes.) When you place your order through a Mooney Service Center that part is back-ordered. If it's a part that they produce, when they have a back-order that becomes large enough to make a minimum number of that part, they do. On some parts the minimum it takes is very few. It wouldn't be cost-effective for you or them to turn out one of those parts. 

As you've also discovered, salvage parts keep the older Mooneys flying and have for many years, even while the factory had 300+ employees. Companies in the U. S. like https://baspartsales.com/ part out Mooneys and are very good to work with. 

In this link there are some recents comments from MooneyMax 2024, where Jonny Pollack, CEO spoke on a video call:

 

Great input Lance, I know you are close to the factory so you have current data. Thx for the positive input.  

[Igor_U]

10 hours ago, Pinecone said:

At Mooney Max, we asked about pre-paid ordering to limit the drain on Mooney's cash.  Johnny said the problem is, the vendors have 6 - 8 week lead times, and he could not guarantee the the doors would be open to receive, QA, and ship them that far out. 

 

Is it just me or is anyone else alarmed with this statement? 

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

 

Is it just me or is anyone else alarmed with this statement? 

I'm not.

They have operated on a shoestring for the past 4 years and they've been able to add employees and keep the lights on. They have also added some other contract work from other companies to help keep the doors open. 

None of us know for sure what the future of Mooney is, nor do we know whether any of us will be run over by a bus tomorrow. I try not to concern myself with things i can't control.

[Paul Thomas]

As an airplane owner that needs parts from time to time, I admire that that his willingness to share it how likely they are to shut down and the willingness to continue to work through it with no apparent long term plan. You have to feel for the workers who know they are always 2 month out from bankruptcy. I'd imagine it's hard to attract talent under those conditions. The sad part is that parts would seem like their best path forward; it makes you wonder how bad the cash crunch really is.

[Barneyw]

Well the reaction seems to be varied.

From my point of view I need parts when I need parts and it's not as if we have choice as Mooney require you to source parts from them and moreover, from authorised service centres.  

I would also add that it's not 7,000 aircraft it's about 11,000 worldwide (happy to be corrected on this)

While I think it's a great thing that in the US you have the FOPP process no such luck where I live and most likely in other jurisdictions.

My other concern is that you will just invite people to start doing their own thing which is not ideal.

From a business point of view you are not going to make money if you don't have anything to sell.

Mooney has the history, the engineering, the know how, and know your Mooney better than anyone - how do I know - it says so on their website.

I was told today that the listings of Mooneys is increasing and when I started looking for aircraft to buy I seem to remember only seeing maybe two or so  pages of aircraft. Now there are 5 pages of aircraft for sale as of today. I'm not sure whether that's an economic phenomenon or something more sinister?

From my point of view I think there is a real issue that requires objective discussion centred around realistic outcomes for Mooney owners.

Anyhow I'm hoping for some interesting comments

Cheers

[ArtVandelay]

Mooney may have manufactured 11,000 but I think the existing fleet is 7000.

[kortopates]

…
Mooney has the history, the engineering, the know how, and know your Mooney better than anyone - how do I know - it says so on their website.

They used too. The majority of that talent is gone now with factory operating on a skeleton crew.

As has been mentioned. The factory is still making parts. I’ve never waited more than 3-4 weeks for parts despite initially hearing 3 months multiple times. It sucks to be AOG when something Mooney specific breaks. But more often than not, it’s not a Mooney specific airframe part that needs to be sourced but a standard part like a gear limit switch or a relay or a switch. Or a Mooney part that can be repaired like an electric cowl flap motor, or voltage regulator. Things you really never want to pay $ for a new replacement part when they can be repaired.

Being a Mooney owner is more about learning how to source and repair parts than worrying about factory parts availability. As long as they still remain in business i am not overly concerned.

Besides no matter what concerned discussions we have here, the factory will continue to do their best to survive as they see fit. That even includes a few unsuccessful people that have tried to invest serious amount of money to see the factory tackle projects without response.

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:14 AM, tony said:

My opinion of course:  The best thing that cold happen to us, the owners, is they just go out of  business.  They certainly are not supporting the owners. 

The FAA released a Airworthiness Concern letter on 9/24/2024. This morning, two days later Mooney International sent out a Special Letter referencing it to all M20 owners who have signed up for notices.
Do you really think it would be better for all owners if they went out of business?

 

[Echo]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:11 PM, LANCECASPER said:

I'm not.

They have operated on a shoestring for the past 4 years and they've been able to add employees and keep the lights on. They have also added some other contract work from other companies to help keep the doors open. 

None of us know for sure what the future of Mooney is, nor do we know whether any of us will be run over by a bus tomorrow. I try not to concern myself with things i can't control.

When you have a late model Mooney, NOT a plane that is approaching 6 decades since manufacture it is MUCH easier to be cavalier in your opinions of a company.  I take ALL your comments on Mooney support with several grains of salt.  Mooney, based on the gear actuator, is like an ocean liner adrift on a dark moonless night with no Captain or functioning engine room.  The captain and 35 crew appear to be asleep?

[1980Mooney]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:57 AM, Barneyw said:

I would also add that it's not 7,000 aircraft it's about 11,000 worldwide (happy to be corrected on this)

You are quoting the total number built over 70 years.  The Mooney Company website quotes about 7,000 still in the US and about 1,000 outside the US.  That number has been posted for a long time and the fleet shrinks every year.  Doing a quick search I find about 6,700 registered in the US.

[1980Mooney]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:14 AM, tony said:

My opinion of course:  The best thing that cold happen to us, the owners, is they just go out of  business.  They certainly are not supporting the owners. 

By going out of business it would put all the engineering data in the public domain.  Then people who want to make an owner produced parts would have access to the design data. 

Why do you believe that the engineering data would be put in the public domain?  The company could go inactive or dormant and still hold all their intellectual property.  If they have debts which force them into bankruptcy, then there will likely be a Chapter 7 liquidation.  The assets will be sold.  Someone will likely buy the intellectual property/engineering data assets.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Echo said:

When you have a late model Mooney, NOT a plane that is approaching 6 decades since manufacture it is MUCH easier to be cavalier in your opinions of a company.  I take ALL your comments on Mooney support with several grains of salt.  Mooney, based on the gear actuator, is like an ocean liner adrift on a dark moonless night with no Captain or functioning engine room.  The captain and 35 crew appear to be asleep?

Scott,

He asked if anyone else was alarmed with a statement that was made. I said I was not alarmed by it. Period - that was my opinion.

If your opinion is different, you have that right. In all of the years you've been on here with all of the other screen names, the underlying issue it always comes back to is that it seems you think we all need to have the same viewpoint. That's never going to happen. That's what makes this a valuable forum - a variety of viewpoints. I enjoy hearing your viewpoint and I'm glad you're here.. 

My viewpoint on this subject is based on having owned Mooneys 31 years, and not all of them have been late models. In that time Mooney has had 5 different ownerships, has filed bankruptcy once and had shutdowns of several years, a few times. Through that entire time, in addition to the parts Mooney has manufactured, resourceful owners have been always able to find solutions to what they need. That's why there are still 7,000 Mooneys flying. I'm more optimistic now than I was at other times since I've gone to the Factory and the Service Center in person a few times times in the past few years and am not basing my opinion on others who've never been there. That's only my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to see it that way nor do I care if they do. 

[1980Mooney]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:14 AM, tony said:

My opinion of course:  The best thing that cold happen to us, the owners, is they just go out of  business.  They certainly are not supporting the owners. 

By going out of business it would put all the engineering data in the public domain.  Then people who want to make an owner produced parts would have access to the design data. 

It would also stop these ridiculous ADs that have no value.  I had to ground my 60 year old airplane, to perform an inspection on a part that should have been found in an annual.  If the the time of compliance would have said at the next 100 hour inspection.  But to ground the airplane was an emotional response, not an engineering response.

Ok I'm waiting for all the negative comments now, bring them on.......

Actually, if Mooney only wanted to be a parts supplier and nothing more with no dream of ever building a plane again, then the best thing would be to file bankruptcy.  There would be a "sale of assets" of the engineering drawings, IP, certificates which would go to a new Parts Building Only company. The New Parts Company would right size to less overhead, smaller facility,  All the liabilities related to building planes would stay behind in the bankrupt legal entity.   All the overhead costs for legal and insurance related to full aircraft manufacturing would be gone.  The 3rd party supplier agreements would be gone but the 3rd party suppliers would still need to abide by the Intellectual Property rights that the New Parts Company would own. 

But everyone overlooks the fact that the Chinese Meijing Group still owns 20% of Mooney Corp.  We can say that Meijing was dumb for dumping $100+ millions into Mooney but I doubt that they are stupid.  Most likely the money that Meijing put into Mooney is in the form of loans that are secured by the assets of the company including the IP, engineering drawings, certificates, etc.  That means that Jonny cannot sell or give away or release any engineering data like on the simple 20 and 40 gears.  There is no indication that Jonny and Wyoming LLC US Financial came with bags of money to buy out Meijing or make them whole.  Look at what the VanGrunsven family did in the Vans Aircraft bankruptcy.  Founder VanGrunsven had been selling his ownership in the company off to the employees (who had no real significant money to put into the company - which sounds like US Financial at Mooney to me).  However, VanGrunsven had secured all the assets of Vans with loans to the company in his family name.  When Vans filed bankruptcy, VanGrunsven was on both sides of the settlement.  It was 'win-win" for VanGrunsven regardless of whether it was a Chapter 7 liquidation or Chapter 11 reorganization.  He had every outcome covered. If it went Chapter 7, he could jerk all the designs, engineering, certificates back he was secured. (also all the machine tools).  In Chapter 11 (which is the way it went), he is the biggest creditor and wound up with 100% of the stock.  VanGrunsven was the "puppet master" in the entire settlement.  The employee stockholders got hosed.

[Echo]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Scott,

He asked if anyone else was alarmed with a statement that was made. I said I was not alarmed by it. Period - that was my opinion.

If your opinion is different, you have that right. In all of the years you've been on here with all of the other screen names, the underlying issue it always comes back to is that it seems you think we all need to have the same viewpoint. That's never going to happen. That's what makes this a valuable forum - a variety of viewpoints. I enjoy hearing your viewpoint and I'm glad you're here.. 

My viewpoint on this subject is based on having owned Mooneys 31 years, and not all of them have been late models. In that time Mooney has had 5 different ownerships, has filed bankruptcy once and had shutdowns of several years, a few times. Through that entire time, in addition to the parts Mooney has manufactured, resourceful owners have been always able to find solutions to what they need. That's why there are still 7,000 Mooneys flying. I'm more optimistic now than I was at other times since I've gone to the Factory and the Service Center in person a few times times in the past few years and am not basing my opinion on others who've never been there. That's only my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to see it that way nor do I care if they do. 

Just keeping it real Lance.  My issue with Mooney, as a 20+ year owner is that there are parts and there are CRITICAL parts.  Johnny knows what parts are CRITICAL.  Not supplying these parts or providing the data to allow these parts to be manufactured at a reasonable price is flat out wrong and unaccepable...In my opinion.  Not supporting the fleet is just sad.  Might as well be orphaned, because as a vintage owner that IS my reality.  Enjoy your late model Mooney.  Yes,  I am fully aware of my rights to my own opinion and to you yours.  Have a great night.  Scott