Straight in Final

[Vance Harral]

1 minute ago, slowflyin said:

One of my "tricks" with both VFR Flight Following and when IFR, is to begin to monitor the CTAF on comm 2

If you're fortunate enough to have a modern com radio, it can often "monitor" the audio of the standby frequency (muting it when there is audio on the primary).  And you probably already have your standby tuned to the CTAF of the place you're going, so this is easy-peasy.  I teach this trick a lot.

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

If you're fortunate enough to have a modern com radio, it can often "monitor" the audio of the standby frequency (muting it when there is audio on the primary).  And you probably already have your standby tuned to the CTAF of the place you're going, so this is easy-peasy.  I teach this trick a lot.

The ones which can monitor the backup frequency are cool. I see them mostly in LSAs and older 2-seat trainers. But I'm referring to your basic dual setup with an audio panel which allows one COMM unit to be send/receive and the other receive only. So I'm talking to ATC on COMM 1 and monitoring COMM 2.

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The ones which can monitor the backup frequency are cool. I see them mostly in LSAs and older 2-seat trainers. But I'm referring to your basic dual setup with an audio panel which allows one COMM unit to be send/receive and the other receive only. So I'm talking to ATC on COMM 1 and monitoring COMM 2.

I’ve been flying in and around the Balt/Wash metro area in a single com, tail dragger. I did not realize how much I appreciated dual coms with the ability to listen to and preload multiple frequencies until operating without that capability in busy airspace.

[wombat]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:36 PM, jetdriven said:

As far as I know, there’s really no reason not to have some kind of COM radio.

Money.   There are plenty of people flying who can barely afford it and a handheld radio might be a trivial cost to you but it's not to them.  The FAA gives us our requirements, and I prefer to let people that meet those requirements fly in peace.

I know one guy who worked out the cost to rebuild his plane (experimental) and was debating that Vs. buying and installing a ADS-B out system since rebuilding from scratch would actually have been about $500 cheaper and he could rebuild without an electrical system while he had already added an electrical system to the current plane.  He did end up adding ADS-B because he would have taken maybe a year to rebuild Vs. a week for ADS-B install.

 

You might say "Well, if they can't afford this, they shouldn't be flying!" but don't forget that the airlines say all that about each and every piston aircraft and anything with less than 50 passenger seats.  If you don't have two pilots, TCAS, autothrottles, and a positive rate of climb with one engine inop, you shouldn't be in the sky at all!  Freaking cheap jerks making the sky unsafe for everyone.

 

Also, not every location in the country is going to let you monitor CTAF (or WX or anything) from 50 miles out.   For example, from my home airport to KBFI in Seattle, it's 102 miles, but the terrain goes up by 9,000' in the middle and then back down.   The terrain goes up 4,000' in the first 4.4 miles and 7,000' in the first 11 miles.   I think the best solution is to follow the regulations such as see and avoid and use the tools you have available radios if you got 'em, ADS-B when you can, and so on to reduce the risk, and remember that not everyone has all the same equipment or skills.

[802flyer]

Money.   There are plenty of people flying who can barely afford it and a handheld radio might be a trivial cost to you but it's not to them.  The FAA gives us our requirements, and I prefer to let people that meet those requirements fly in peace.
I know one guy who worked out the cost to rebuild his plane (experimental) and was debating that Vs. buying and installing a ADS-B out system since rebuilding from scratch would actually have been about $500 cheaper and he could rebuild without an electrical system while he had already added an electrical system to the current plane.  He did end up adding ADS-B because he would have taken maybe a year to rebuild Vs. a week for ADS-B install.
 

Penny wise and pound foolish. A handheld com transceiver can be found on ebay for $100-150 or you can order one new for $200. If someone isn’t willing to amortize that into their flying budget for the year (or a couple years if you want…save up for that “panel upgrade”) for the ability to communicate in the pattern, check weather, etc., that’s absurd.

There’s plenty of things that are legal per the regs, but unwise; I would put NORDO ops towards the top of my list given how low the barrier to entry is. Having a comm radio vs auto-throttles/TCAS are not comparable in terms of the magnitude of safety return to the individual pilot plus everyone else.


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[wombat]

10 minutes ago, 802flyer said:

Penny wise and pound foolish. 

 

What's the actual risk?    How many accidents have actually occurred due to one or more aircraft not having a radio where if they had purchased and used a radio the accident would not have happened?  "Close calls" don't count because everybody has their own definition of what a close call is.  I expect that number is astonishingly small.

 

And you say there are plenty of things that are legal per the regs, but unwise... And that radios fits into that but TCAS/auto-throttles does not...   I will tell you that a lot of the flying public and airline pilots/employees would tell you that auto-throttles/TCAS are EXACTLY comparable and if anything, more important than radios in a bugsmasher.

[802flyer]

What's the actual risk?    How many accidents have actually occurred due to one or more aircraft not having a radio where if they had purchased and used a radio the accident would not have happened?  "Close calls" don't count because everybody has their own definition of what a close call is.  I expect that number is astonishingly small.
 
And you say there are plenty of things that are legal per the regs, but unwise... And that radios fits into that but TCAS/auto-throttles does not...   I will tell you that a lot of the flying public and airline pilots/employees would tell you that auto-throttles/TCAS are EXACTLY comparable and if anything, more important than radios in a bugsmasher.

This thread wouldn’t exist or have gotten any traction if close calls were so easily written off. I suspect the number of pilots who truly cannot afford a handheld vs. can’t be bothered* is also astonishingly small.

Autothrottles and TCAS cannot be implemented for $150, so I would argue that they’re not comparable on that basis alone. The airlines/public are entitled to disagree.

*see anti-authority, invulnerability, and macho hazardous attitudes

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[wombat]

2 minutes ago, 802flyer said:

This thread wouldn’t exist or have gotten any traction if close calls were so easily written off.

Autothrottles and TCAS cannot be implemented for $150, so I would argue that they’re not comparable on that basis alone. The airlines/public are entitled to disagree.


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I just wrote them off.     See, it's that easy!

They can be implemented for an amount of money and time, just like a radio.  The presence or lack of these things have a measurable impact on safety, just like a radio.  Sure, they have different values, but it's a difference in opinion on if the expense is worth the value.   And your opinion is worth no more or less than that of an airline official in this regard.

 

Anyway, the bottom line here is that different people and organizations have different budgets and different tolerances for different types of risk but the FAA is the final authority on the limit of risk and they say that flying in many places without a radio is just fine.

[jetdriven]

Auto throttles and TCAS are tens of thousands each.  A com radio is like 2k.  That whole argument is nothing but hyperbole and is designed to blow up the conversation.

On the other thread, we’re talking about somebody almost running over somebody in an Aeronca something or other with no radio. And again the barrier to entry is like low enough to where If you can’t afford it you probably shouldn’t be flying. Rental planes have Com radios. 

[slowflyin]

Some of the questions were difficult to answer as it really depends on the situation.   For me, I take all the available information and try  to apply reason in a courteous manner.  When the airspace is busy it becomes a interesting challenge.   My last flight I chose straight in final.  It wasn't particularly busy but there was one AC in the pattern doing touch and goes and jump plane had just kicked a load out.  Without the jumpers I would have crossed midfield for the downwind.  Instead, I adjusted my approach speed to time my arrival so I didn't inconvenience the gent doing tough and goes, avoided the chutes, and worked my way in before the jump plane.   A little bit of coms work and everyone had a nice flight.    

[wombat]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Why don’t you take your  fake screen name, your ridiculous theories and bullshit opinions somewhere else.  And learn to participate in civil discourse without being a troll.  Perhaps gain some credibility in the aviation community as well as this forum, first. 

I've got plenty of credibility in the aviation community and on this forum.    My screen name is no more or less fake than yours.  You resorting to name calling by saying my screen name is 'fake' is childish.

The FAA requirements are not a theory, they are regulation.

I was being civil until you decided that your budget and risk tolerance applied to everyone, even after I pointed out that there are people with higher risk tolerance and lower budget as well as people with a lower risk tolerance and higher budget and that your personal opinion on this topic holds no special place and the sole authority on this has already made a decision that is contrary to yours.

Edited September 3, 2024 by wombat
Removed some unhelpful negative comments. I was angry.

[MikeOH]

58 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Why don’t you take your  fake screen name, your ridiculous theories and bullshit opinions somewhere else.  And learn to participate in civil discourse without being a troll.  Perhaps gain some credibility in the aviation community as well as this forum, first. 

WOW!

You don't agree with someone so you call them a troll and try to 'make them go away'?? Along with a bunch of invectives??  SHEESH!

It's legal to fly without a radio in some areas. PERIOD.  Don't like, then get the FAA to make it a regulation.

I honestly thought you were more civil than this last post of yours.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

Money.   There are plenty of people flying who can barely afford it and a handheld radio might be a trivial cost to you but it's not to them. 

The people I know who fly NORDO do so thinking that "the guvmint cain't find 'em".  They may even own a handheld in some cases.

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

The people I know who fly NORDO do so thinking that "the guvmint cain't find 'em".  They may even own a handheld in some cases.

• Well, that's certainly an interesting rationale!   Do they wear foil hats, too? 

[wombat]

Just now, Fly Boomer said:

The people I know who fly NORDO do so thinking that "the guvmint cain't find 'em".  They may even own a handheld in some cases.

I don't hate my fellow man, even when he's tiresome, surly, and tries to cheat at poker.  I figure that's just the human material.  And him that finds any cause for anger and dismay is just a fool for expecting better.

   - Buster Scruggs

 

Some people sure are tiresome and surly at the very least.   

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, wombat said:

I don't hate my fellow man, even when he's tiresome, surly, and tries to cheat at poker.  I figure that's just the human material.  And him that finds any cause for anger and dismay is just a fool for expecting better.

   - Buster Scruggs

 

Some people sure are tiresome and surly at the very least.   

Just to clarify, I do enjoy breakfast or coffee with these guys, but I'm not riding with them or flying into their preferred airport.

[Yetti]

If there is a straight in and less than nobody in the pattern, It's time for an overhead break or as the aim calls it an overhead maneuver.     I announce what I am doing.    "overhead break joining the downwind at mid field"   "Break overhead the field, Turning for left downwind"   "Turning Downwind from mid field"

makes for a nice circle to land.  Gives me a chance to check things out and improve SA.

 

[dkkim73]

18 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Do they wear foil hats, too? 

More evidence for those than a lot of things a person hears these days. Maybe it will quiet the audio noise when I turn on Low Boost...

[dkkim73]

7 minutes ago, Yetti said:

If there is a straight in and less than nobody in the pattern, It's time for an overhead break or as the aim calls it an overhead maneuver.     I announce what I am doing.    "overhead break joining the downwind at mid field"   "Break overhead the field, Turning for left downwind"   "Turning Downwind from mid field"

makes for a nice circle to land.  Gives me a chance to check things out and improve SA.

 

Actually, I almost asked about this the last time it came up. 
I used to do overheads on practice flights back in the PA-28's, usually when it was quiet and the controllers and I were helping each other's currency with surveillance approaches. 

Haven't done it in the Mooney, yet. I guess I figured more time to configure was good so I've been doing the standard box patterns.  But I have been wondering if anyone here has any tips on procedural flow to share on doing a robust overhead recovery in a Mooney (esp. long-body, and ref. speeds, etc). ?

[201er]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Auto throttles and TCAS are tens of thousands each.  A com radio is like 2k.  That whole argument is nothing but hyperbole and is designed to blow up the conversation.

On the other thread, we’re talking about somebody almost running over somebody in an Aeronca something or other with no radio. And again the barrier to entry is like low enough to where If you can’t afford it you probably shouldn’t be flying. Rental planes have Com radios. 

Do skydivers have radios? Do drones have radios? Do birds have radios?

No amount of radios can guarantee everyone is on the same frequency, with their volume up, with their radio operable, actually listening, actually comprehending, actually knowing their location, actually conveying the right information, not being blocked by another transmission, etc…

See and avoid is something everyone has, comes for free, and works virtually every time. That is why it is mandated while radios are not.

§ 91.113(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.

 

 

91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.

Edited September 4, 2024 by 201er

[802flyer]

In the handful of years I’ve been hanging around mooneyspace (fewer than most, admittedly), I’d say the mood can be safety-conscious to a fault. Panel discussions invariably go down rabbit-holes regarding how many backups to the backups are backed up. If separated from the context of this thread, I’m confident the hive mind would have a field day if someone discussed launching into LIFR with basic ATOMATOEFLAMES/GRABCARD equipment, even though that’s perfectly legal per the regs. And as far as the FAA/regs are concerned—more often than not—posts here are quite critical of the archaic bureaucracy that governs us.

So if someone had told me that mooneyspace’s line in the sand would be to defend NORDO flying because it’s in the regs and therefore sacred, I’d have laughed. But people are complex and I’m intrigued to learn that some notions I’ve had about the place were incorrect.

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion. I’ve shared mine; others have disagreed which is their right. The internet would be a boring place if we all just showed and unanimously agreed that the regulations and state-of-affairs are perfect as-is. Here’s hoping the conversation can continue in a civil manner.


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[Hank]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Do skydivers have radios? Do drones have radios? Do birds have radios?

No amount of radios can guarantee everyone is on the same frequency, with their volume up, with their radio operable, actually listening, actually comprehending, actually knowing their location, actually conveying the right information, not being blocked by another transmission, etc…

See and avoid is something everyone has, comes for free, and works virtually every time. That is why it is mandated while radios are not.

§ 91.113(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.

 

 

91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.

Thank you for bring up "Visual Flight Rules" and the responsibility for IFR pilots to look outside the cockpit and visually avoid other traffic when visibility allows.

I was going to do that, but you beat me to it!

[Vance Harral]

15 minutes ago, Hank said:

No amount of radios can guarantee everyone is on the same frequency, with their volume up, with their radio operable, actually listening, actually comprehending, actually knowing their location, actually conveying the right information, not being blocked by another transmission, etc…

This is the reason I have a hard time getting worked up about NORDO traffic.  I'm convinced that most of the airplanes the pearl-clutching crowd thinks are NORDO, actually do have one or more radios onboard.  But honest mistakes are made tuning or flip-flopping radios (and ironically, it's sometimes the person complaining that's actually on the wrong frequency).  Sometimes the receiving pilot turned down their radio volume and forgot to turn it up.  Sometimes the transmitting pilot has a mic or audio panel problem they haven't recognized.  Sometimes the person complaining that an offending aircraft "made no CTAF calls" simply missed the call(s) actually made by the "offender" - and by the way, this sort of miss is made increasingly likely the more that everyone wants to have lengthy conversations on the CTAF about what their plans are for the next several minutes, and negotiating deconfliction with some other airplane nearby in the pattern on which they've fixated.

I've seen every one of these situations as an instructor, and - gasp - committed a few of them myself in 35 years of flying.  Bottom line, the idiot you think is NORDO may indeed be an idiot.  But the odds they're actually NORDO just because it's legal to do so, are pretty low.

 

[Hank]

Hey @Vance Harral, please note that while you quoted me with that statement, if you check my post, that part was quoted from @201er, two posts above mine.

But I agree with the sentiment. And I was recently the offender, and called out at the fuel pumps, making me Ihad radio trouble. When I cranked up to taxi to my hangar, the CTAF was in the flip-flop position on my Garmin--either I pressed the button and it didn't flip; or I pressed the button and it flipped, then flopped back when i released it (which I've seen happen a few times); or I dialed the frequency and never pressed the button. But the reporter called back on the radio.and let me know he heard my call leaving the fuel pump.    No radio repair required. 

[NickG]

I appreciate the purists who want to fly a classic plane, home built or project equipped with state of the art 1938 avionics. Like the classic car caravans/rally’s where 100 model T’s or similar drive the coast road or the freeway for their club. Thing is, when they do that, the road is generally closed or they have police escorts so people in 2024 Chargers don’t run them off the road.

The NAS system has become so crazy and congested since I got my PPL in 1986. If you’re NORDO, stay away from busy areas or busy patterns. Yes, it’s your right and the regs say you can do it, but should you? Oh, and by the way, most likely you’ll be following every procedure in the book properly but some newly minted cowboy in a CIrrus who doesn’t know that he’s supposed to look outside the plane will descend on top of you.

While it’s true there have not been many MACs due to NORDO, the crash a year or so ago in Winterhaven was a very sad example.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/march/08/fatal-florida-midair-leaves-many-mourning