Why you can’t land a Mooney until it’s ready

[mooneyflyfast]

Here’s my J Model in a level attitude.  You can  see that the nose wheel is firmly on the ground while the mains are 4-5 inches in the air. If you contact the ground in this attitude you are guaranteed to go bouncing and you will be in this attitude unless the airplane is slow enough to get the nose up. You can’t shorten or hurry uo the landing by “planting” it on the ground like you might do in a Cessna or something.

[dkkim73]

That is super-helpful, thank you!

[Shadrach]

It's not quite that simple.  Level attitude at what speed, weight, flap setting and CG?  Even with the flaps fully deployed and the change in effective wing chord (straight line from trailing edge to leading edge), at reasonable approach speeds the level flight (not level pitch) attitude will still be positive enough to touch down mains first (but not by a lot while in ground effect).  With the flaps up, nose up attitude will be even greater.  Go do some level, slow flight with the gear down at 80kias or less and note the plane's pitch attitude.  It will be significantly higher than level pitch attitude. Adding flaps will lower the pitch attitude at a given speed due to both increased lift, shift in center of pressure (aft) and effective chord change which changes the effective angle of incidence.  There is a lot more going on in flight compared to simply observing the airplane on jacks.

Bottom line - use the appropriate speed for the weight and configuration.  It is indeed possible to fly the mains on well above stall in all configurations, but the slower the better. Nevertheless, while it is possible to fly the mains on with adequate energy to lift off again it is not best practice under most situations with the exception of formation landings were it is SOP.

 

[EricJ]

This is also a good illustration of why it's a little tricky to weigh a Mooney.    It needs to be in this level configuration to get the CG right, which usually means letting the air out of the nosewheel and shimming up the main gear with plywood or something.

[MooneyMitch]

Seems to me the gentleman was just making a semi lighthearted statement about making sure you land mains first, generally not hitting on the nose wheel first...........or else.................bouncing we go. 

[N201MKTurbo]

52 minutes ago, EricJ said:

This is also a good illustration of why it's a little tricky to weigh a Mooney.    It needs to be in this level configuration to get the CG right, which usually means letting the air out of the nosewheel and shimming up the main gear with plywood or something.

I have found an Aircraft Spruce catalog under each main wheel on the scales, is just about perfect.

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Seems to me the gentleman was just making a semi lighthearted statement about making sure you land mains first, generally not hitting on the nose wheel first...........or else.................bouncing we go. 

Sorry...Captain Literal misunderstood the transmission...

[MooneyMitch]

I always appreciate your posts, Ross !

[Hank]

I heard and have verified a nice trick for those short fields. There's a 2000' grass strip near where I was based for my first 7 years, and I would visit with a 2 people & half tanks limit. 

One solo landing there i was floating merrily along in ground effect, throttle at idle, about a foot in the air. As the halfway point was approaching, and I was worrying about my ability to do a go around, I remembered something I had read on the Mooneyland website where Coy had written about winning a spot landing contest in his Mooney. I stretched out a finger and raised the flaps!

As the flaps went up, the nose went up and about the time the flaps hit the stops, my wheels touched down and began bouncing along in the grass. Very little braking was required to stop. 

It wasn't quite what I was expecting,  but raising the flaps seemed like the nose pretty much held it's position on the approaching gravel pile and the rear end just lowered and sat down.

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have found an Aircraft Spruce catalog under each main wheel on the scales, is just about perfect.

Just don't forget to subtract the 200 pounds. :D

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Just don't forget to subtract the 200 pounds. :D

Just tare the scales with the catalogs and chocks on the scales.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

I heard and have verified a nice trick for those short fields. There's a 2000' grass strip near where I was based for my first 7 years, and I would visit with a 2 people & half tanks limit. 

One solo landing there i was floating merrily along in ground effect, throttle at idle, about a foot in the air. As the halfway point was approaching, and I was worrying about my ability to do a go around, I remembered something I had read on the Mooneyland website where Coy had written about winning a spot landing contest in his Mooney. I stretched out a finger and raised the flaps!

As the flaps went up, the nose went up and about the time the flaps hit the stops, my wheels touched down and began bouncing along in the grass. Very little braking was required to stop. 

It wasn't quite what I was expecting,  but raising the flaps seemed like the nose pretty much held it's position on the approaching gravel pile and the rear end just lowered and sat down.

A friend had an E model for a long time and for a while the flap master cylinder had a leak with just the right characteristic that when he got close enough to the ground for flare the flaps would leak up on their own.   He thought it was great and made for perfect landings, but then had to get it fixed when it got worse enough for them to start coming up earlier than that.    He was bummed that he had to get it fixed. 

[kortopates]

To add on to Ross’ post, i would add one of the most fundamental steps in learning how to land any airplane is the round out or what we use to call flare.
Never do we land strictly level, but we continue to raise the nose in ground effect while keeping the cowling just below the end of the runway looking straight ahead, while allowing the mains to settle on the runway. The really proficient pilot doesn’t relax the back pressure till the yoke is fully back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking (with exceptions for crosswinds) before letting the nose wheel contact the runway.
Over rotating, and losing sight of the runway straight ahead, risks a tail strike; more so in long body.
We have all learned what happens when we fail to execute the round out or flare before impacting the runway; hopefully well enough in trainers so as not to be reminded in a mooney.
So the pitch attitude on the ground really has nothing to do with how to land a Mooney or any aircraft.
And lastly every formation pilot learns how to land their Mooney as fast as 90 kts on the runway killing the myth that you can only land at the “proper speed”. But of course a formation landing is very different from a normal landing.

Aircraft need positive pitch on the ground for stability else, we’d be wheel barreling down the runway.


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[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have found an Aircraft Spruce catalog under each main wheel on the scales, is just about perfect.

What year catalog?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

To add on to Ross’ post, i would add one of the most fundamental steps in learning how to land any airplane is the round out or what we use to call flare.
Never do we land strictly level, but we continue to raise the nose in ground effect while keeping the cowling just below the end of the runway looking straight ahead, while allowing the mains to settle on the runway. The really proficient pilot doesn’t relax the back pressure till the yoke is fully back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking (with exceptions for crosswinds) before letting the nose wheel contact the runway.
Over rotating, and losing sight of the runway straight ahead, risks a tail strike; more so in long body.
We have all learned what happens when we fail to execute the round out or flare before impacting the runway; hopefully well enough in trainers so as not to be reminded in a mooney.
So the pitch attitude on the ground really has nothing to do with how to land a Mooney or any aircraft.
And lastly every formation pilot learns how to land their Mooney as fast as 90 kts on the runway killing the myth that you can only land at the “proper speed”. But of course a formation landing is very different from a normal landing.

Aircraft need positive pitch on the ground for stability else, we’d be wheel barreling down the runway.


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To my knowledge, I have never scraped the tail on my F model but the tie down ring suggests that someone has.  I have done many short field landings with the yoke hitting  the aft limit right at touchdown. Is it possible that it has scraped without being audible/noticeable in the cockpit?

[kortopates]

To my knowledge, I have never scraped the tail on my F model but the tie down ring suggests that someone has.  I have done many short field landings with the yoke hitting  the aft limit right at touchdown. Is it possible that it has scraped without being audible/noticeable in the cockpit?

It’s much harder to tail strike a mid body than a long body. But avoidance is guaranteed in any model by not raising the nose so high as to lose sight of the end of the the runway. But as we continue to pull the yoke full aft we’re doing this when the aircraft no longer has excess energy to balloon. What we’re really doing, or how i prefer to explain it, is we’re trying to prevent first the mains from settling and then after prevent the nose wheel from settling till we have no further back pressure to add.
But to maximize short field technique, i am sure from your past writings you’re coming in at 1.2 Vso, rather than 1.3 for a normal landing, with very little excess energy to bleed off likely resulting in a firmer landing for a very short runway. As such we’re not likely carrying power into the round out but coming down steeper with no power or very little and doing a faster than normal round out and using the ground effect to cushion a steeper descent angle and absorb the remaining energy.
The steeper approach angle, little to no power and slower approach speed all lead to requiring a perfectly timed and faster continuous flare to bring the yoke back.
I don’t mean for the explanation to make it sound scary but it’s amazing how little runway the proficient pilot needs to land their Mooney with good short field technique.
it’s not difficult at all to beat the POH landing distances which are based on a normal 1.3 Vso approach speed and a normal 3 deg approach angle using proper short field techniques as you have written about here in the past.


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[Shadrach]

On 7/20/2024 at 7:53 PM, kortopates said:

It’s much harder to tail strike a mid body than a long body. But avoidance is guaranteed in any model by not raising the nose so high as to lose sight of the end of the the runway. But as we continue to pull the yoke full aft we’re doing this when the aircraft no longer has excess energy to balloon. What we’re really doing, or how i prefer to explain it, is we’re trying to prevent first the mains from settling and then after prevent the nose wheel from settling till we have no further back pressure to add.
But to maximize short field technique, i am sure from your past writings you’re coming in at 1.2 Vso, rather than 1.3 for a normal landing, with very little excess energy to bleed off likely resulting in a firmer landing for a very short runway. As such we’re not likely carrying power into the round out but coming down steeper with no power or very little and doing a faster than normal round out and using the ground effect to cushion a steeper descent angle and absorb the remaining energy.
The steeper approach angle, little to no power and slower approach speed all lead to requiring a perfectly timed and faster continuous flare to bring the yoke back.
I don’t mean for the explanation to make it sound scary but it’s amazing how little runway the proficient pilot needs to land their Mooney with good short field technique.
it’s not difficult at all to beat the POH landing distances which are based on a normal 1.3 Vso approach speed and a normal 3 deg approach angle using proper short field techniques as you have written about here in the past.


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I come in at 1.2Vx but as I get closer to the threshold I’m closer to 1.1 descending with the wing unloaded, power off. If I’ve done it just right (rare), I use up the bulk of my energy arresting the descent and can feel ground effect cushion touch down as I run out of elevator. Almost no float.

If I’ve done it less than just right, I float for 100’ or so. 

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

But to maximize short field technique, i am sure from your past writings you’re coming in at 1.2 Vso, rather than 1.3 for a normal landing, with very little excess energy to bleed off likely resulting in a firmer landing for a very short runway. As such we’re not likely carrying power into the round out but coming down steeper with no power or very little and doing a faster than normal round out and using the ground effect to cushion a steeper descent angle and absorb the remaining energy.
The steeper approach angle, little to no power and slower approach speed all lead to requiring a perfectly timed and faster continuous flare to bring the yoke back.

This 100%. Our runway 36 is 2300’ and has a 3.7* VASI. Oh, and it slopes down at 0.12%.  Trim for 1.2 Vso, 11-13” MAP depending on weight and wind, don’t touch anything until the ground effect, and sometimes it all works out great. @Shadrach, With the steeper approach path, I do need the full 1.2x to arrest the descent rate.  Ask me how I know, lol.

 I didn’t know my wife was going to be out videoing my landing after my 7 hours of flying Thursday, but I’m glad she did.  Put on a bit of a landing clinic :-)

-dan

 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

we’re not likely carrying power into the round out but coming down steeper with no power or very little and doing a faster than normal round out and using the ground effect to cushion a steeper descent angle and absorb the remaining energy.

ALL of my landings are no power for the last 1/8-1/4 mile before the numbers, slowing from 85 to 70-75 mph depending on weight. But I wouldn't call them "steep." Then again, short bodies are much easier to land than long bodies. I'm generally down around the 2nd or 3rd stripe. That's also about the same distance that I usually land over the trees on the few grass strips that I visit; I'm heading to a 3500 grass strip next weekend, landing over the pine trees and power lines, so we'll see how it goes.

57 minutes ago, exM20K said:

I didn’t know my wife was going to be out videoing my landing after my 7 hours of flying Thursday, but I’m glad she did.  Put on a bit of a landing clinic :-)

That was a beautiful landing! But please tell your wife that she doesn't need to whisper the compliments--I had to back it up to hear what she said.  

As an aside, that looks startlingly similar to the field where a car drove across the approach end and was hit by a landing Cessna a few years ago . . . .

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

 I didn’t know my wife was going to be out videoing my landing after my 7 hours of flying Thursday, but I’m glad she did.  Put on a bit of a landing clinic :-)

Niice short field landing. That did not look like much extra energy at all. I didn't hear power changes either. I would imagine you need to have the profile just right, maybe set up speed and then "grab" the slope with just the right power setting and ride it in? 

Still leaving myself a lot of room in the Acclaim...

[Pinecone]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:04 PM, kortopates said:

The really proficient pilot doesn’t relax the back pressure till the yoke is fully back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking (with exceptions for crosswinds) before letting the nose wheel contact the runway.

Aerobraking has little effect undrt 100 knots.  And it works better with swept wings which have massive drag with very little lift when over rotated

Edited July 22 by Pinecone

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

To my knowledge, I have never scraped the tail on my F model but the tie down ring suggests that someone has.  I have done many short field landings with the yoke hitting  the aft limit right at touchdown. Is it possible that it has scraped without being audible/noticeable in the cockpit?

Give that tail down a light coat of paint and see if you ever scrape that off.

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Aerobraking has little effect above 100 knots.  And it works better with swept wings which have massive drag with very little lift when over rotated

Hopefully a really proficient pilot trying to land, which is what @kortopates was referring to, is not touching down above 100 knots. 

[exM20K]

11 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Niice short field landing. That did not look like much extra energy at all. I didn't hear power changes either. I would imagine you need to have the profile just right, maybe set up speed and then "grab" the slope with just the right power setting and ride it in? 

Still leaving myself a lot of room in the Acclaim...

Really the best way to get comfortable with this is to practice slow flight at altitude in landing configuration and power. You should be able to maintain 4-500 FPM descent rate at 70KIAS mid weight.  Experiment with power changes, and you’ll see that while IAS does go up and down immediately, the plane returns to trimmed airspeed very quickly. You’re in the region of reversed control here, so pitch up increases descent rate and pitch down decreases it.  I really try not to mess with pitch but am pretty aggressive with power changes.  None evident on this flight because it was dead calm.

-dan

[mooneyflyfast]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

So the pitch attitude on the ground really has nothing to do with how to land a Mooney or any aircraft.
And lastly every formation pilot learns how to land their Mooney as fast as 90 kts on the runway killing the myth that you can only land at the “proper speed”. But of course a formation landing is very different from a normal landing.

Aircraft need positive pitch on the ground for stability else, we’d be wheel barreling down the 

I’m curious how you land a Mooney at 90 knots?  can you elaborate?  What is a formation landing?

The factory specs for my Ercoupe call for adjusting the tail height to 75” so as to achieve a level pitch attitude on the ground.   It also states that the airplane can be “landed at any speed” which I think is true.

You can argue the exceptions and theoretical aspects of this.  I was only trying to provide some general  information that can be put to practical use. I’ll rephrase my statement:  You will make better landings and avoid potentially damaging bounces if you hold it off until it is ready to land.