Owner assisted installs/Budget ideas?

[LANCECASPER]

29 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

@LANCECASPER Great point. I guess it would also come down to what is even usable for a certain model.  With all the shops being backed up and prices in general, I was just hoping there might be an option that wouldn't be getting into second-mortgage territory. 

This is another good reason to be patient, finding an airplane that is mostly the way you want it. What they have put into the airplane they will not get out. The rule of thumb has been that you get 50 cents on every avionics upgrade dollar that you put into an airplane when you sell it soon after the upgrade. In today's market it could even be closer to 70%, but never even close to 100%.

You aren't saving any money buying a "cheap" airplane that needs a lot and then spending 2024 money to get it the way you want. Plus you actually get to fly it instead of having it in the shop for months soon after buying it.

[BlueSky247]

You read my mind. I was just thinking I'd better change my focus on getting one of the newer J's, or comparable model with the upgraded panel.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

After I was done with my avionics installation in 2017, the dealer who sold me all the equipment, asked how long it took. I said it was about 70 hours. He said that sounds about right. With just working nights and weekends, It took about 6 weeks before it was done. It's a lot more work than it seems.

Totally agree. However, what percentage of the work requires truly skilled labor?  It’s part of the reason repair stations employ a hierarchy of skilled/credentialed labor. I’ve personally spent some time at the bottom of that repair station hierarchy though years before TAA was a thing. I learned to buck rivets not because I displayed some great aptitude with a bucking bar, but because no one further up the hierarchy felt that laying in a confined fuselage…in August…warranted their high level of skill/experience. The system serves two goals. It provides a path for increased experience for newbies and helps to right size labor costs. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing, but I am saying that spending 50K to upgrade the panel in a $70k airplane that will then be a $90k airplane when finished is why there are a lot of planes flying around with legacy equipment.
Then there are the occasional bugs. Though they are rare, we have had folks on this board with very expensive panel upgrades that have found themselves staring at 60K worth of red X’s while in IMC. 

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

You just filtered out 999,999 out of a million.

It's not as bad as it sounds.    Most modern avionics have no adjustments on any transmit signal, so it's probably not an issue on most things.   Old stuff that had tweaks for filters and adjustments for gain on the transmit side were potentially an issue if they needed tweaking, but most modern stuff doesn't have any of that.

The FCC GROL isn't that hard to get if you're reasonably radio savvy.   I have one.   I think you're right that the vast majority of A&Ps don't, though.

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The FCC GROL isn't that hard to get if you're reasonably radio savvy.

I got mine (It was a first class radiotelephone license back then) during my senior year in high school. Used it to get my first summer job babysitting a 50kW AM station transmitter. Never had to do anything except write down all the meter readings every half hour and sign the log. I spent most of my time making music tapes from the record library. It was indoors and paid pretty well.

[Max Clark]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The rule of thumb has been that you get 50 cents on every avionics upgrade dollar that you put into an airplane when you sell it soon after the upgrade. In today's market it could even be closer to 70%, but never even close to 100%.

But probably helps the plane sell faster and before others

[OR75]

3 hours ago, Max Clark said:

But probably helps the plane sell faster and before others

not sure about that. a lower priced aircraft would have a larger number of potential buyers if the minimum is there (like a solid airframe , being airworthy and ADS-B)

[Pinecone]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:22 AM, Shadrach said:

It’s why many folks in my area fly 100s of miles to find more competitive service providers. There are exceptions for simple airframe and power plant repairs, but specialty work has been impacted by an almost unrestricted flow of taxpayer funds and corporate turbine money whose expenditures are a means of reducing taxable corporate profits. It’s a double edged sword. GA enjoys an infrastructure that is largely financed by turbine operations but is also being squeezed by that same market.  

Between 58 and 98 NM are 3 decent avionics shops for you.  The one I like is 58 NM from you.
 

[jetdriven]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:17 PM, Max Clark said:

But probably helps the plane sell faster and before others

That rule of thumb is stale. You get almost all the money back if not all.  2 years ago a 4-servo GFC-500 was 18k installed.  Now it’s 26k. Next year it’s gonna be 30. 

[hammdo]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

That rule of thumb is stale. You get almost all the money back if not all.  2 years ago a 4-servo GFC-500 was 18k installed.  Now it’s 26k. Next year it’s gonna be 30. 

That is very true now - not the ‘affordable’ option as it keeps going up for us… 30k in a C model will be a hard pill to swallow…

-Don

[Schllc]

On 5/27/2024 at 2:47 PM, toto said:

I believe the TruTrak / BK Aerocruze AP is certified for the M20 series. But I’m also pretty sure that they aren’t approach certified yet. 

Dynon’s integrated autopilot is always a year away. 

One should consider resale and support in addition to any dislike for Garmin. 
people just don’t seem to want the other brands when you go to sell. 
I have no experience with dynon or avidyne,  but I really do not line the aspen units and I am not alone.   Even the few friends I have that love/loved them either long for Garmin or have switched. 
if it’s a forever plane I suppose it doesn’t matter but it makes does make it easier to swallow when Garmin is just that much better…

it’s only money right?

[KSMooniac]

If you are DIY-inclined and have a friendly A&P/IA to supervise and sign for you, you might want to consider the Approach Fast Stack system.  This can greatly simplify the makeover/installation process for panel upgrades, and give you some future flexibility to upgrade various components without a full rip-out and do-over installation.  Using their system will allow you and your mechanic/shop to focus on the layout and mechanical installation aspects of the upgrades, and not the creation of a custom harness.  Many mechanics are far more comfortable installing a rack and connecting a pre-made (and tested!) harness versus planning and fabricating all of connections themselves.  

You'll still have the challenge of acquiring whatever boxes you wish to install... and if you want new Garmin stuff, that brings challenges since they drive everything through their dealer network.

[Skates97]

On 5/27/2024 at 9:01 AM, Shadrach said:

The degree to which one can participate in maintenance is determined entirely by the mechanic whose signature will be in the logs. 

On 5/27/2024 at 7:45 PM, EricJ said:

The main barrier to A&Ps supervising avionics installations is the comfort level of the A&P to do so, and many don't like dealing with anything electrical, let alone avionics.   I know a number of aircraft owners who have installed their own avionics.   It's always been somebody competent to do so, and they had a cooperative A&P.  In my observation it has gone as well as with many shops.

I have built a good relationship with my AP/IA. I'll talk to him about a problem or upgrade and often he will say "that's in your wheelhouse" and provide instruction, oversight, etc... The first avionics I did was replacing the transponder. It was an easy one as I had the harness pre-made. The next job was the big one. I put in two G5's, a GNC355, upgraded the EDM830 to an EDM900, CiES fuel senders, and a PMA450B audio panel. There were a few moments where I thought "I wonder how much it will cost to have someone fix all this if it doesn't work." I went slow, double and triple checked everything as I went, and it all worked. I think I was down for 2-3 weeks which is much better than the 6 months my friend's plane was down for a similar avionics upgrade.

[BlueSky247]

@Skates97 that's awesome! I've made a couple of local A&P contacts that seem to be casual so I will hopefully be able to replicate your experience. I had formal electronics schooling back in the day and my career is in network engineering, so certainly no stranger to being very careful and thorough.

 

But I am a super noob at all of the options available these days. If I wanted to make a really good IFR-capable autopilot part of the build, would that limit me to the G gear as far as things approved for these planes? I sure do like the dynon skyview but it's much less appealing if I have to run an entire seperate stack for the AP.

 

 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, BlueSky247 said:

@Skates97 that's awesome! I've made a couple of local A&P contacts that seem to be casual so I will hopefully be able to replicate your experience. I had formal electronics schooling back in the day and my career is in network engineering, so certainly no stranger to being very careful and thorough.

But I am a super noob at all of the options available these days. If I wanted to make a really good IFR-capable autopilot part of the build, would that limit me to the G gear as far as things approved for these planes? I sure do like the dynon skyview but it's much less appealing if I have to run an entire seperate stack for the AP.

Currently Garmin is the answer. If/when Dynon is approved it looks like a nice option, but that is a big if/when. 

I was on a waitlist for the Trutrack for years. When the GFC500 was on the horizon for approval in the short body Mooneys I decided I would just go the Garmin route and put in the G5's and GNC355. A few months later the GFC500 approval was final and I made the first appointment I could get and it went into the shop for the autopilot. I've been flying with it now for three years and 450+ hours and no regrets. In my opinion it is a very capable IFR setup.

The nice thing about all Garmin is that it uses a CAN bus which really simplifies the installation.

[toto]

6 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Currently Garmin is the answer. If/when Dynon is approved it looks like a nice option, but that is a big if/when. 

I was on a waitlist for the Trutrack for years. When the GFC500 was on the horizon for approval in the short body Mooneys I decided I would just go the Garmin route and put in the G5's and GNC355. A few months later the GFC500 approval was final and I made the first appointment I could get and it went into the shop for the autopilot. I've been flying with it now for three years and 450+ hours and no regrets. In my opinion it is a very capable IFR setup.

The nice thing about all Garmin is that it uses a CAN bus which really simplifies the installation.

Back when I was trying to decide what to do for a panel upgrade, I spent a lot of time looking at the Dynon options, and after many years working with regular avionics shops on certified gear, it was a strange experience to talk with experimental shops about the Skyview system.  The shops I have used in the past didn't know anything about Skyview, and the experimental shops didn't seem to have much experience working on certified aircraft.

At this point, I have exactly one thing in the panel that doesn't have a Garmin logo on it, and that's my #2 nav/com.  I also drive by Garmin HQ on my way to the airport every time, so, you know - buy local

 

[Z W]

One recent data point - just got the plane back from swapping its 430W for a GTN650Xi and adding a SmartGlide button.

Waited just over 12 months for a slot at the avionics shop. They are great and did the rest of the panel for us. I pay them quickly and are very grateful they will work us in. They have more work than they know what to do with. The plane just in front of ours was a King Air getting a full $200k+ panel redo.

Our "simple" navigator swap took two months. There was a delay related to the King Air that pushed us back, then one of their techs had an injury. Totally understandable, and that's just the reality of things at the moment. I can't imagine even asking them to supervise an owner install.

They did tell me that this year, some of their customers are canceling their orders when they call to say their slot is up, which is new. Reasons given include deciding to just sell the plane instead. First signs of a slowdown? Maybe there's some relief on the horizon for this problem.

[Skates97]

5 hours ago, Z W said:

One recent data point - just got the plane back from swapping its 430W for a GTN650Xi and adding a SmartGlide button.

Waited just over 12 months for a slot at the avionics shop. They are great and did the rest of the panel for us. I pay them quickly and are very grateful they will work us in. They have more work than they know what to do with. The plane just in front of ours was a King Air getting a full $200k+ panel redo.

Our "simple" navigator swap took two months. There was a delay related to the King Air that pushed us back, then one of their techs had an injury. Totally understandable, and that's just the reality of things at the moment. I can't imagine even asking them to supervise an owner install.

They did tell me that this year, some of their customers are canceling their orders when they call to say their slot is up, which is new. Reasons given include deciding to just sell the plane instead. First signs of a slowdown? Maybe there's some relief on the horizon for this problem.

Long delays at avionics shops have been the norm for a long time. I wouldn't expect to find an avionics shop that would work with me on an install, but my local AP/IA on the field is always willing.

[201Mooniac]

22 hours ago, Skates97 said:

The next job was the big one. I put in two G5's, a GNC355, upgraded the EDM830 to an EDM900, CiES fuel senders, and a PMA450B audio panel.

This is great to hear, I don't know many who successfully complete an audio panel install that quickly and don't chase noise for awhile.  Congrats

[Skates97]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:37 AM, 201Mooniac said:

This is great to hear, I don't know many who successfully complete an audio panel install that quickly and don't chase noise for awhile.  Congrats

Thanks, it was a couple 14-15 hour Saturdays and 3-4 hours every night after work. When I ordered the PMA450B I also ordered the harness which came with everything including headphone jacks prewired which was a huge help. 

[BlueSky247]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Thanks, it was a couple 14-15 hour Saturdays and 3-4 hours every night after work. When I ordered the PMA450B I also ordered the harness which came with everything including headphone jacks prewired which was a huge help. 

Nicely done! That’s pro level committment there. 
 

Reading and hearing how long it takes the average homebuilder to install their systems is a real eye-opener. It’s true they have to do a lot more fab and figuring work, but either way, these are major projects!

[N201MKTurbo]

On 5/28/2024 at 4:39 PM, PT20J said:

I got mine (It was a first class radiotelephone license back then) during my senior year in high school. Used it to get my first summer job babysitting a 50kW AM station transmitter. Never had to do anything except write down all the meter readings every half hour and sign the log. I spent most of my time making music tapes from the record library. It was indoors and paid pretty well.

I had a second class, then a first class with a radar endorsement. P1-11-52650 if I recall. I wrote it on hundreds of F&D certs. I worked for a radio common carrier, then Maricopa County where I was in charge of keeping the microwave system and all the remote base stations working. Did so much 4x4 driving, I got sick of it. After you have gotten yourself unstuck from a muddy hole for the 30th time 100 miles from the next human, it gets old, along with changing tires on crazy steep roads. Anyway. it was downgraded to a GROL. It has been a few decades since I was in the commercial radio biz. I'm not sure if the license expires, and if it does, I don't know what to do to get it working again.  

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I'm not sure if the license expires, and if it does, I don't know what to do to get it working again.  

I used to have to renew it every so often (5years if I recall correctly). But when the FCC eliminated the radiotelephone licenses and replaced them with GROL it eliminated the expiration so I believe it’s good forever unless there was a rule change I missed. 

[McMooney]

8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Thanks, it was a couple 14-15 hour Saturdays and 3-4 hours every night after work. When I ordered the PMA450B I also ordered the harness which came with everything including headphone jacks prewired which was a huge help. 

I did the same, you have to order the audio harness premade or get it from an authorized dealer to get the warranty

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

I used to have to renew it every so often (5years if I recall correctly). But when the FCC eliminated the radiotelephone licenses and replaced them with GROL it eliminated the expiration so I believe it’s good forever unless there was a rule change I missed. 

I just looked it up, I guess I still have a GROL.