Open Door In Flight training?

[wombat]

There are enough accidents related to doors opening in flight that result in strongly negative outcomes I wonder if we would be better off experiencing an open door in a more controlled environment so we can manage this situation better when it happens unexpectedly.

Since I have a > 10,000' runway available I'm confident that I could land safely even if I can't maintain controlled flight below 120 KTIS.  With speed brakes & landing gear I can slow from 120 knots to 0 in less than 2 miles.   So maybe I should go fly with someone and open the door in flight and practice closing it both with and without their assistance.   I've done it dozens of times on my 182 and on various other single engine Cessnas.    

 

What does everyone think?  Is this just a stupid idea that is going to get people killed or is it a great idea that will save lives?

[Greg Ellis]

I have been in a Mooney when the door popped open and there was no way of closing it.  The wind got underneath it and flexed the door just enough that the latch would no longer go in the hole at the top of the door.  No matter what we did, we could not get it closed.  Fortunately we only had about 10 minutes or so before we were landing so we just lived with the noise but there was no way the door was going to close.  

I believe it is because of the curvature of the top of the door and wind gets under it and lifts it so the latch no longer lines up.

Others may say it is no big deal and the door closes with no issues but not in this Mooney that I was in. (An A model)

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

What does everyone think?

I say ignore the door, land ASAP, and fix it on the ground.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I bought my first Mooney, I flew it to Oshkosh the night after I picked it up. I was flying along and the door was leaking air. I told my passenger to open the door and re-close it. After he opened it, we couldn't get it closed. I told him I would slow down till the airplane stalled (in the dark) and for him to try to close it when we were stalled. It worked! 

I haven't done that since. It is great to be young and bulletproof. Wish I still was.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Wish I still was.

Amen, Brother.

[201er]

Seems like the absolute best thing you can do is FORGET ABOUT THE DOOR!!!!

Keep your speed up, go land, deal with it on the ground. Fiddling with it or wasting any attention thinking about it seems to be the cause of more than one serious accident.

And secondarily, never let passengers (including other pilots) close the door. This virtually guarantees it won't open in flight.

Edited May 16, 2024 by 201er

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I have been in a Mooney when the door popped open and there was no way of closing it.  The wind got underneath it and flexed the door just enough that the latch would no longer go in the hole at the top of the door.  No matter what we did, we could not get it closed.  Fortunately we only had about 10 minutes or so before we were landing so we just lived with the noise but there was no way the door was going to close.  

I believe it is because of the curvature of the top of the door and wind gets under it and lifts it so the latch no longer lines up.

Others may say it is no big deal and the door closes with no issues but not in this Mooney that I was in. (An A model)

Not true. How much did you slow down.  I've opened and closed the door in my F in flight with no trouble.  I slowed to about 80MIAS before I even attempted to close it.

[N201MKTurbo]

For those who haven't flown a Mooney with the door open, it is a non event. It will stay open about 2 inches. it makes a bunch of noise, but doesn't change the flying of the plane at all. 

Now the baggage door is another story. I haven't had one open in flight, but have had a few instances where it opened on the takeoff roll. It opens pretty early in the roll, so I have always had plenty of room to stop. It gets your attention.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

There are enough accidents related to doors opening in flight that result in strongly negative outcomes I wonder if we would be better off experiencing an open door in a more controlled environment so we can manage this situation better when it happens unexpectedly.

Since I have a > 10,000' runway available I'm confident that I could land safely even if I can't maintain controlled flight below 120 KTIS.  With speed brakes & landing gear I can slow from 120 knots to 0 in less than 2 miles.   So maybe I should go fly with someone and open the door in flight and practice closing it both with and without their assistance.   I've done it dozens of times on my 182 and on various other single engine Cessnas.    

 

What does everyone think?  Is this just a stupid idea that is going to get people killed or is it a great idea that will save lives?

Climb to a safe altitude and practice closing the door at safe but low indicated airspeed (Something 1.4xVs). 

I once inadvertently closed the tail of the passenger seatbelt in the door.  I heard a slapping sound to my right on climb out. When I moved the pax seat aft to investigate, I could see the seat belt tail caught in the rear part of door.  I leveled at something like 3,500' and trimmed for 80MIAS. When the plane was stable, I reached over and unlatched the door, retrieved and stowed the seatbelt. I then latched the door and continued to my climb. It was easier to close than expected.  Given all of the stories that I have read here about it being "impossible",  I was pretty aggressive with my pull.  That was overkill. A firm pull was all that was really necessary.  I think the whole thing took less than 30 seconds from the time I let go of the yoke to resuming my climb.  Not a big deal. 

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

For those who haven't flown a Mooney with the door open, it is a non event. It will stay open about 2 inches. it makes a bunch of noise, but doesn't change the flying of the plane at all. 

Now the baggage door is another story. I haven't had one open in flight, but have had a few instances where it opened on the takeoff roll. It opens pretty early in the roll, so I have always had plenty of room to stop. It gets your attention.

I am ashamed to say that in 25 years of Mooney flying I have had two baggage door "pops"...which is to say the Schmuck in the left seat did not ensure the door was latched. Both times were caused by pilot distraction during preflight/loading by passengers.  It's why I try to load and preflight the plane without passengers present. In both door "pops" the door started flying long before the plane. No problem to stop and taxi back, just embarrassing.

If unsure about the latch, one can always open the passenger door before departure and take a look...I can say from experience that it's a good idea to remove a ball cap before doing so...

[N201MKTurbo]

12 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I am ashamed to say that in 25 years of Mooney flying I have had two baggage door "pops"...which is to say the Schmuck in the left seat did not ensure the door was latched. Both times were caused by pilot distraction during preflight/loading by passengers.  It's why I try to load and preflight the plane without passengers present. In both door "pops" the door started flying long before the plane. No problem to stop and taxi back, just embarrassing.

If unsure about the latch, one can always open the passenger door before departure and take a look...I can say from experience that it's a good idea to remove a ball cap before doing so...

I wish I was a perfect pilot.

And yes, when people help, things get missed. 

[wombat]

What I'm hearing is a variety of experiences on being able to shut the passenger door while in flight.

@Greg Ellis was unable to close the door in flight.    I trust that he is a competent pilot and doesn't need my advice or criticism on why he was unable to close the door.  Could be model specific.

@Shadrach, @N201MKTurbo and myself have been able to shut the door.  

And as @201er says, just fly the plane....    

 

This is kind of why I think maybe "open door in flight" training would be useful.   Sure it's a huge distraction, but if we all practiced it a time or two it would be familiar enough that we'd be able to fly the plane to a safe landing.

 

I've heard that the Cessna 310 is really horrible about having the door open in flight.  It disrupts enough of the lift over the wing and engine nacelle that you are nearly stall/spin for the right wing at approach speeds.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

What I'm hearing is a variety of experiences on being able to shut the passenger door while in flight.

@Greg Ellis was unable to close the door in flight.    I trust that he is a competent pilot and doesn't need my advice or criticism on why he was unable to close the door.  Could be model specific.

@Shadrach, @N201MKTurbo and myself have been able to shut the door.  

And as @201er says, just fly the plane....    

 

This is kind of why I think maybe "open door in flight" training would be useful.   Sure it's a huge distraction, but if we all practiced it a time or two it would be familiar enough that we'd be able to fly the plane to a safe landing.

 

I've heard that the Cessna 310 is really horrible about having the door open in flight.  It disrupts enough of the lift over the wing and engine nacelle that you are nearly stall/spin for the right wing at approach speeds.

I’d maybe consider it in training, but I think a thorough ground discussion with a new mooney pilot would suffice.  I’m actually glad I didn’t have instruction on how to close the door when mine popped.  I didn’t close it right and the top latch wasn’t done.  I took off from some lonely, hot, high New Mexico airfield at mgw.  The top of the door was open a bit and noticeably loud.  The airplane was flying like a fully loaded pig at high-ish DA.  I thought it wouldn’t be tough, so I opened the door and tried to close it at say pattern altitude.  No dice.  Just as @Greg Ellis said, it was pretty solid at 1-2” open.  Now I didn’t get slower than ~100kts and I’m happy about that.  I’m guessing if you get slow enough, you can close it.  Also a little slip and possibly even the storm window open.  Now the reason I’m glad I didn’t know all that was because I didn’t do any of it.  I just flew to my destination with a louder and more drafty airplane.  I think it’s probably fine to do how @N201MKTurbo did at cruise altitude (night stalls might be a stretch), but I certainly wouldn’t want people slowing to just above stall, heavy, low, maybe some yaw, distracted - you see where this goes.  I think the best thing is to know that it can be hard to close, it’s possible at slow speeds, it flys just fine with the door open, it won’t open far, and you shouldn’t mess with it unless you have knowledge and altitude.  And it helps if you’re bulletproof as @N201MKTurbo suggests.

[Greg Ellis]

22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not true. How much did you slow down.  I've opened and closed the door in my F in flight with no trouble.  I slowed to about 80MIAS before I even attempted to close it.

It may not be true but I was just speculating as to why we could not close the door.  I was in the copilot seat, not flying the plane.  The pilot slowed down but not sure down to what and he also slipped it to try to help.  I never said it was impossible….just that on this day we could not get the door closed.

[Shadrach]

58 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

It may not be true but I was just speculating as to why we could not close the door.  I was in the copilot seat, not flying the plane.  The pilot slowed down but not sure down to what and he also slipped it to try to help.  I never said it was impossible….just that on this day we could not get the door closed.

Closing the door from the right seat is not ideal on the ground with the airplane shut down. Very little leverage with your left arm crossed over your chest and your elbow bent. I’m not surprised you weren’t able to get it closed in the air. If it ever happens again, the best course of action is to have the right seater do the flying and the left seater reach across and pull the door closed.

[Hank]

19 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’d maybe consider it in training, but I think a thorough ground discussion with a new mooney pilot would suffice.  I’m actually glad I didn’t have instruction on how to close the door when mine popped.  I didn’t close it right and the top latch wasn’t done.  I took off from some lonely, hot, high New Mexico airfield at mgw.  The top of the door was open a bit and noticeably loud.  The airplane was flying like a fully loaded pig at high-ish DA.  I thought it wouldn’t be tough, so I opened the door and tried to close it at say pattern altitude.  No dice.  Just as @Greg Ellis said, it was pretty solid at 1-2” open.  Now I didn’t get slower than ~100kts and I’m happy about that.  I’m guessing if you get slow enough, you can close it.  Also a little slip and possibly even the storm window open.  Now the reason I’m glad I didn’t know all that was because I didn’t do any of it.  I just flew to my destination with a louder and more drafty airplane.  I think it’s probably fine to do how @N201MKTurbo did at cruise altitude (night stalls might be a stretch), but I certainly wouldn’t want people slowing to just above stall, heavy, low, maybe some yaw, distracted - you see where this goes.  I think the best thing is to know that it can be hard to close, it’s possible at slow speeds, it flys just fine with the door open, it won’t open far, and you shouldn’t mess with it unless you have knowledge and altitude.  And it helps if you’re bulletproof as @N201MKTurbo suggests.

I forgot to close the door one hot summer morning. Noticed on climbout, trailing open about 2". Pulled it once, didn't move. Decided to climb some before messing with it. (I may have been 500' agl, way too low for any distractions.)

Around 3000', I  figured I could try it once or fly 45 minutes with extra noise and draft. Pulled the handle back, pulled on the strap, then yanked it and the door popped closed. Threw the latch and went on.

The important parts of this to me are:

• Fly the plane
• Don't mess with it at low altitude
• Try it once
• Be prepared to fly on if unsuccessful 
• Fly the plane 

[Pinecone]

When I instructed in 150s and 172s, just before solo I would pop open the side window. 
 

this was after having discussed it on a few flights.  I guess they paid attention as then flew the airplane. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

When I instructed in 150s and 172s, just before solo I would pop open the side window. 
 

this was after having discussed it on a few flights.  I guess they paid attention as then flew the airplane. 

Yeah that’s a good one, or even the door on a cessna as it’s easy to close.  The dpe is supposed to do something distracting (like barfing on takeoff or talking a lot), so seems like practing that is good.

[midlifeflyer]

Bonanzas in particular are notorious for doors popping open during takeoff. So definitely SOP to make sure it happens during transition training. 

A good idea for other makes and models, although it doesn't seem to be done that often.  

One of my instructors did it to me in an Arrow. Not on takeoff but in flight.
He: "The door popped open."
Me: "You better hang on. I'm busy flying."

[M20F]

On 5/16/2024 at 5:27 PM, wombat said:

I've heard that the Cessna 310 is really horrible about having the door open in flight.  It disrupts enough of the lift over the wing and engine nacelle that you are nearly stall/spin for the right wing at approach speeds.

320 which was the first turbo version of 310, no issue with door open.  It is same as Mooney it’s just cracked a bit didn’t notice really anything other than noise. 
 

The mighty AC560 though you could open close door with relative ease.  It was great.  Strap into the bench and pop the door to drop flour bombs with high precision.  

[Ibra]

I had door open twice, first case, I flew with it open and second case I close it

All details are in POH/AFM, you will notice it's tough to close without opening stormwindow, slipping and having someone not scared in right hand seat

The reason why people close it because the prioritise radio with ATC, after all, you need to hear ATC clearly on radio to safely land an aircraft 

If one applies "Communicate and latter Aviate", then they are likely to be bothered and try to close it in the air 

If one does not give a cent about two-way comms, they will just ignore and land with door open 

[Shadrach]

18 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I had door open twice, first case, I flew with it open and second case I close it

All details are in POH/AFM, you will notice it's tough to close without opening stormwindow, slipping and having someone not scared in right hand seat

The reason why people close it because the prioritise radio with ATC, after all, you need to hear ATC clearly on radio to safely land an aircraft 

If one applies "Communicate and latter Aviate", then they are likely to be bothered and try to close it in the air 

If one does not give a cent about two-way comms, they will just ignore and land with door open 

I opened my storm window as well when I closed my door in flight. I don’t dispute that it helps, as certainly seems to drop the pressure in the cabin. The thing is, anyone that has removed their interior has likely seen the large cabin outflow vents on each side of the cabin below the rear seat backs. The vents are ~3cm x 8cm rectangular openings that are covered externally by louvered plates. I would think would be adequate to prevent a pressure differential. Perhaps someone has some additional insight as to why opening a third vent (side window) makes a difference.

 

[Ibra]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The vents are ~3cm x 8cm rectangular openings that are covered externally by louvered plates. I would think would be adequate to prevent a pressure differential.

Yes I exepct they should help, however, they are likely optimised to prevent pressure differential with airflow when doors are closed? 

One has to look at full airflow as you have both sauction effect (near window or door) as well as overall internal pressure of cabin

It will be good to understand how airflow and pressure gets distributed, let say electrical cabin fire?

Edited May 20, 2024 by Ibra

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I opened my storm window as well when I closed my door in flight. I don’t dispute that it helps, as certainly seems to drop the pressure in the cabin. The thing is, anyone that has removed their interior has likely seen the large cabin outflow vents on each side of the cabin below the rear seat backs. The vents are ~3cm x 8cm rectangular openings that are covered externally by louvered plates. I would think would be adequate to prevent a pressure differential. Perhaps someone has some additional insight as to why opening a third vent (side window) makes a difference.

 

If you open the storm window *and* slip to the right you'll get an even bigger differential to help close the door.    I've always thought that was the idea.

 

[Pinecone]

That was what came to my mind.  With a bit of slip, the storm window would be at a low pressure area and help suck the door closed.

You want to be slow, as the slip stream on the outside of the door creates "lift" to keep the door from closing.