Fix or part out

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm having trouble understanding how you got to this point.  Maybe the engine shop asked if you would like a major overhaul, and you agreed?  Before the prop strike, was it a high time engine with low compression, high oil consumption, excessive blow-by, broken rings, cracked cylinder heads, overheating due to bad baffles and baffle seals, oil leaking from a cracked case, oil analysis indicating spalled lifters and cam damage, etc.?  If you had some or all of those problems prior to the prop strike, I can understand wanting and needing a major overhaul.  Many owners do opt for a major overhaul while the engine is torn down because it can save some money.  This situation does not sound like it's going to save money.

Indeed, if the shop performs a field overhaul, it is going to cost almost $13,000 more than an factory overhaul exchange.   No one in their right mind would pay that for a field overhaul...unless they we're made an offer they could not refuse.

[BS20E]

3 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm having trouble understanding how you got to this point.  Maybe the engine shop asked if you would like a major overhaul, and you agreed?  Before the prop strike, was it a high time engine with low compression, high oil consumption, excessive blow-by, broken rings, cracked cylinder heads, overheating due to bad baffles and baffle seals, oil leaking from a cracked case, oil analysis indicating spalled lifters and cam damage, etc.?  If you had some or all of those problems prior to the prop strike, I can understand wanting and needing a major overhaul.  Many owners do opt for a major overhaul while the engine is torn down because it can save some money.  This situation does not sound like it's going to save money.

It was running fine before and after the prop strike. I was doing touch and goes and forgot the gear I heard it scrap and lifted , I flew it 50 miles back to my home airport with no problems. Only did I realize the prop had struck was at shutdown.

[LANCECASPER]

3 minutes ago, BS20E said:

It was running fine before and after the prop strike. I was doing touch and goes and forgot the gear I heard it scrap and lifted , I flew it 50 miles back to my home airport with no problems. Only did I realize the prop had struck was at shutdown.

How many hours total time on the engine?

[BS20E]

Just now, BS20E said:

It was running fine before and after the prop strike. I was doing touch and goes and forgot the gear I heard it scrap and lifted , I flew it 50 miles back to my home airport with no problems. Only did I realize the prop had struck was at shutdown.

It was only sent there for the strike inspection nothing else did I know was wrong with it it had good compression and it used a quart of oil every ten hours and not that if I ran it with 6 quarts in it or less

[BS20E]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

How many hours total time on the engine?

1100 hours on engine 

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, BS20E said:

1100 hours on engine 

 

They may not have understood clearly your intentions when you sent it there. At least when going there in person relay that you're giving them the benefit of the doubt  - that what you fully intended and what they were thinking may have been two completely different things. Then ask, know ing this how can we move forward and do what is only absolutely necessary to get my engine signed off and re-installed so I can go flying again. (I would ask what it will take to repair your case, ask if they have inspected your cam and crank, and see if they can overhaul your cylinders. )

Let them know that they came highly recommended and that their reputation as being fair and honest is why you chose them.

[BS20E]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

I would ask what it will take to repair your case, ask if they have inspected your cam and crank, and see if they can overhaul your cylinders. 

They may not have understood clearly your intentions when you sent it there. At least when going there in person relay that you're giving them the benefit of the doubt  - that what you fully intended and what they were thinking may have been two completely different things. Then ask, know ing this how can we move forward and do what is only absolutely necessary to get my engine signed off and re-installed so I can go flying again.

Okay thanks 

[N201MKTurbo]

It would be perfectly legal to disassemble the engine, do the required prop strike inspections and if nothing was found, reassemble it with nothing but new gaskets. 

If it was me, I would have the cam and lifters overhauled, which is less than $1000. If you did that you may need a few pushrods, which are about $100 each. 

So 5 hours to disassemble the engine, and 10 hours to reassemble it. At $200/hr that comes to $4500 with incidentals. So the $12000 is excessive with no new parts, 

I bet the shop owner drives a nice new truck.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It would be perfectly legal to disassemble the engine, do the required prop strike inspections and if nothing was found, reassemble it with nothing but new gaskets. 

If it was me, I would have the cam and lifters overhauled, which is less than $1000. If you did that you may need a few pushrods, which are about $100 each. 

So 5 hours to disassemble the engine, and 10 hours to reassemble it. At $200/hr that comes to $4500 with incidentals. So the $12000 is excessive with no new parts, 

I bet the shop owner drives a nice new truck.

The teardown and reassembly should fall under the inspection covered by the insurance company.  It would take a monumental shift in the facts surrounding this situation for me to believe this is anything other than a shop strong arming a captive customer.  It happens. Sometimes it happens to people who don't know it’s happening to them.  I would make one polite attempt to give the shop an opportunity make this correct.  If they failed, I would seek to sever ties with as little drama and acrimony as possible while trying to minimize the possibility of property damage/sabotage.

Negotiating with terrorists rarely goes well. 

[clh]

I feel your pain, coming out of a similar situation.  $45k is about right for a propstrike inspection.  Prices are way out of control.  But, depending on the avionics  you have, take a look at what the market is like.  Good "E"'s are hard to find at a reasonable price.   Also, before you contact the insurance, look at your stated value.  If it is low, the insurance adjuster will just total the aircraft and leave you screwed.      

[BS20E]

7 minutes ago, clh said:

I feel your pain, coming out of a similar situation.  $45k is about right for a propstrike inspection.  Prices are way out of control.  But, depending on the avionics  you have, take a look at what the market is like.  Good "E"'s are hard to find at a reasonable price.   Also, before you contact the insurance, look at your stated value.  If it is low, the insurance adjuster will just total the aircraft and leave you screwed.      

Thanks for the advice. I should have gotten on here before I went through this. I only had the plane insured for 45000, me and the insurance company thought it would cost a lot less to repair. The prop cost $. 14000 and the removal and reinstall was about 5500. Never dreamed of costing 45000 to 56000 for engine. The insurance won’t cover anything on the engine except the inspection says the other is wear and tear

[LANCECASPER]

7 minutes ago, BS20E said:

Thanks for the advice. I should have gotten on here before I went through this. I only had the plane insured for 45000, me and the insurance company thought it would cost a lot less to repair. The prop cost $. 14000 and the removal and reinstall was about 5500. Never dreamed of costing 45000 to 56000 for engine. The insurance won’t cover anything on the engine except the inspection says the other is wear and tear

Mention that when you go there. “I’ve tried my best to see it from your point of view, but please see it from my point of view. Can you understand on a $45000 airplane why I would have never agreed to putting $45000 into the engine?”

[Shadrach]

51 minutes ago, clh said:

I feel your pain, coming out of a similar situation.  $45k is about right for a propstrike inspection.  Prices are way out of control.  But, depending on the avionics  you have, take a look at what the market is like.  Good "E"'s are hard to find at a reasonable price.   Also, before you contact the insurance, look at your stated value.  If it is low, the insurance adjuster will just total the aircraft and leave you screwed.      

According to who?  Based on what?  How many cases have you split?   45K is nowhere near "about right" for a prop strike inspection.  

Here are some posted field overhaul price lists from reputable overhaul shops.

Gann Aviation -Factory new limits - $36,050 (good luck getting new cylinders)

A&E Aviation - Overhaul with Serviceable Cylinders - $22,225 (Plano Tx)

Corona Engines- Overhaul with Serviceable Cylinders - $31,500 (Corona, CA)

Prices for field overhauls vary +/- 30% depending on options and region, but in no world does a prop strike inspection cost $45K.

 

[clh]

Quotes for the INSPECTION only, you are correct.   But someone has to remove and re-install the engine...... If that can be done free, $45k is high.

 

And as I stated,  I just am having this work finished myself.  

 

 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, clh said:

Quotes for the INSPECTION only, you are correct.   But someone has to remove and re-install the engine...... If that can be done free, $45k is high.

 

And as I stated,  I just am having this work finished myself.  

 

 

Quotes are for various levels of overhaul, not inspections.

 Removing and reinstalling an IO360 is ~20-25hr job for a competent mechanic (30% removal 70% install. I have both paid to have it done and I have done it personally.
 

Removing cylinders and splitting the case of an IO360 is a 5-6 hour job. I know because I dropped my engine off at my builder mid morning to have the case sent out for overhaul and he called me before close of business that day with his assessment of the internals and to provide a tracking number for the case which was already crated and on its way to the overhauler.  45k for a prop inspection is ridiculous.
 

The OPs shop charged 12k for the prop inspection (top of the invoice). The other 33k is in unauthorized maintenance. Professionals should be paid well for skilled work. They should be ridiculed for taking advantage of the of a customer’s vulnerability and ignorance. 

The fact that you have recently had the work performed does not mean that what you paid was reasonable.  

 

 

[redbaron1982]

Hey, sorry if I missed this part, but are you 100% sure that the engine is disassembled at this point? I wouldn't be surprised if this shady shop has not even touched your engine and is just looking for you to bite on that 45k invoice.

Did you personally verify that the engine is all disassembled?

Did you already pay them the prop-strike inspection part? That is something that should be 100% covered by the insurance.

[201Steve]

I know a seasoned owner who’s gone through multiple overhauls on a mooney he’s owned for 15 years, who has his engine at Pinnacle right now and he’s been very complimentary of the operation. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Seems like you are being way too passive in this situation which has left you in a difficult spot.  So first thing you need to do is start being assertive.     
 

My second impression is that you don’t seem to be very familiar with aircraft maintenance which is where we all start, but leaves you once again in a difficult position.  
 

Doesn’t sound like you have enough money to be a passive uninformed airplane owner.  It’s time to roll up your sleeves and get to work.  
 

If you insured the plane for 45k and the costs exceed that then why hasn’t the insurance company totaled the plane and cut you a check for 45k thus making this conversation moot? 
 

If you are going to proceed with repairing the aircraft I’d seriously consider calling Savvy Aviation and see if they’d start handing the situation for you if you signed up for their service.     I don’t think you are in a position to handle this situation yet without an open checkbook.   
 

Next time you are in this position make sure to communicate before any work starts IN WRITING that you authorize a tear down and inspection and a report on the findings but no further work.  
 

Next when someone says you need a new crankshaft.. “Why do I need a new crankshaft?”  “Why can’t it be reground?” What dimensions is it at?  What are the minimums?  Can your shop grind crankshafts?  Who does do regrinding?  Have you asked that shop about my crankshaft?  

When they say you need a new case… “Why do I need a new case?”….. It has a crack… Where is the crack?  How big is it?  Can that be welded?   Why can’t it be welded?  Do I need both sides of the case or just one?  Why both sides,  are they both cracked?  
 

You need to understand EVERYTHING!  Otherwise you are going to grossly overspend on the maintenance of your airplane.   The way you understand everything is by asking lots of questions and doing lots of research.   If someone won’t answer questions then that’s a person you don’t want working on your plane.  
 

good luck! 

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I know a seasoned owner who’s gone through multiple overhauls on a mooney he’s owned for 15 years, who has his engine at Pinnacle right now and he’s been very complimentary of the operation. 

Ask him if he paid more than factory overhaul price on each overhaul or received a frequent flier discount on the next few. 

[hoot777]

Just went thru this about two years ago. Prop strike inspection was 11k overhaul 26k. I went with overhaul as it had been about 20 years SOH. Pinnacle did the work . Very happy 

[BS20E]

2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Seems like you are being way too passive in this situation which has left you in a difficult spot.  So first thing you need to do is start being assertive.     
 

My second impression is that you don’t seem to be very familiar with aircraft maintenance which is where we all start, but leaves you once again in a difficult position.  
 

Doesn’t sound like you have enough money to be a passive uninformed airplane owner.  It’s time to roll up your sleeves and get to work.  
 

If you insured the plane for 45k and the costs exceed that then why hasn’t the insurance company totaled the plane and cut you a check for 45k thus making this conversation moot? 
 

If you are going to proceed with repairing the aircraft I’d seriously consider calling Savvy Aviation and see if they’d start handing the situation for you if you signed up for their service.     I don’t think you are in a position to handle this situation yet without an open checkbook.   
 

Next time you are in this position make sure to communicate before any work starts IN WRITING that you authorize a tear down and inspection and a report on the findings but no further work.  
 

Next when someone says you need a new crankshaft.. “Why do I need a new crankshaft?”  “Why can’t it be reground?” What dimensions is it at?  What are the minimums?  Can your shop grind crankshafts?  Who does do regrinding?  Have you asked that shop about my crankshaft?  

When they say you need a new case… “Why do I need a new case?”….. It has a crack… Where is the crack?  How big is it?  Can that be welded?   Why can’t it be welded?  Do I need both sides of the case or just one?  Why both sides,  are they both cracked?  
 

You need to understand EVERYTHING!  Otherwise you are going to grossly overspend on the maintenance of your airplane.   The way you understand everything is by asking lots of questions and doing lots of research.   If someone won’t answer questions then that’s a person you don’t want working on your plane.  
 

good luck! 

I had 45000 of coverage on the plane 14000 prop 12000 for inspection 5500 removal and replace- 2500 deductible that leaves the insurance company out 29000 then I am left with 33000 out of my pocket for a repaired engine not a overhauled engine 

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Ask him if he paid more than factory overhaul price on each overhaul or received a frequent flier discount on the next few. 

He did not. There’s clearly something going on here that we are not privvy to. 

[BS20E]

5 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey, sorry if I missed this part, but are you 100% sure that the engine is disassembled at this point? I wouldn't be surprised if this shady shop has not even touched your engine and is just looking for you to bite on that 45k invoice.

Did you personally verify that the engine is all disassembled?

Did you already pay them the prop-strike inspection part? That is something that should be 100% covered by the insurance.

I have not paid them anything yet. I live in Ky and the shop is in lower Alabama. I have reached out today with an email but haven’t gotten a response yet. 

[redbaron1982]

22 minutes ago, BS20E said:

I have not paid them anything yet. I live in Ky and the shop is in lower Alabama. I have reached out today with an email but haven’t gotten a response yet. 

I think there is a possibility that the engine is still untouched.

If at all possible I would try to get there or get someone you trust there to assess the situation in person. 

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, BS20E said:

the shop is in lower Alabama. I have reached out today with an email but haven’t gotten a response yet. 

Where in LA? That's my neck of the woods