Path forward for return to flying/aircraft ownership?

[Wing Nut]

Greetings, all.  I hold ASEL and Instrument-airplane privileges, with ~750 hrs total, ~200 hrs in high-performance, and ~25 hrs of retract time in an Arrow.  Formerly owned a Socata TB-9 Tampico and a Cessna 172R.  I have a solid 1.1 hrs in the last 10 years.

A new-to-me aircraft could be in my future again.  I've taken a fancy to the post-1977 201 series.  Obviously, some training is in order.  Rather than merely refresh my flight review, I thought a commercial rating was more the path forward.  Not only to genuinely refresh my skills, but with the added benefit of presumably lower insurance rates when I go to buy.  However, with the geographic constraints that I face commuting to work, the dizzying turnover in instructors lately, and let's just say the challenge of finding an available rental aircraft I'd trust my life to, obtaining that training has been hard to do.  Thus, I'm considering solving the aircraft availability conundrum by buying an airplane in which to train.  

I seek the collective wisdom of the anonymous internet to inform my decision making. For starters, if I decide to buy now, am I even insurable? If I can get insurance, would it be so expensive that my training for the same number of hours in a rental would be cheaper, assuming that rentals are available?  Presumably, the added time-in-type I'd get by getting an instructor to train me in my own aircraft would "reduce" my future insurance costs.  What are higher-TIT folks paying for full coverage with ~$130k hull values?  Is a commercial rating actually going to materially affect my rates? What else can I be doing to make myself a competent pilot attractive to insurers? An inquiring mind wants to know.... 

[toto]

There are a lot of threads on MS that cover this basic question, but I think the standard response goes something like: Yes, you’ll be able to get insurance. You’ll pay more for the first year, but you can use that year to build experience and reduce your rates significantly for year #2. Commercial probably won’t help much, but time in type from whatever source is a good thing for insurability and premiums. 

Recommend reaching out directly to @Parker_Woodruff with your specific details and he should be able to give you some real numbers. 

[LANCECASPER]

@Parker_Woodruff would be a good insurance resource to answer most of those questions.  https://airspeedinsurance.com/about/

 

Edit: @toto and I replied at the same time . . .  great minds think alike, but what does that have to do with us?

[Schllc]

Insurance may be a bit high the first year foe someone with you experience, but a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. 
Training in the plane you plan to fly is a great idea. 
I do not believe a commercial ticket will reduce you rates however…

[Shadrach]

I advise new students to train in…well trainers. You’re in a different situation. I see nothing wrong with training in your own Mooney, provided you have an instructor with sufficient Mooney experience to manage potential landing missteps. Your new to you 201 will likely only have brakes on the left side.  
 

I’m not suggesting that there’s a good chance that things might go pear shaped, but having seen the aftermath of several poorly executed Mooney landings, I know that pilots that are deemed Mooney current have uncommanded runway departures. 

[PT20J]

All you need is time and financial resources. Getting a commercial certificate is a good thing because the training is structured and you have to meet a defined level of proficiency. But, you need to do it intensively which will also protect you, somewhat, from instructor turnover. When I was actively teaching (I'm a CFII SMEL), pilots that took forever and often quit were the ones that had busy schedules and could only fly a few times a month. Block off some time and get 'er done.

A new to you 40+ year-old airplane can be expensive the first year or two of ownership and can spend a lot of down time in the shop. Most people that sell airplanes do not wake up one morning and decide to sell their meticulously maintained airplane. They have usually been thinking about it for some time and deferring maintenance during that time, perhaps because they really could not afford to own it. Or, they decide to sell when something expensive rears its head like tanks needing resealing. So, you want to pick your airplane very carefully which takes time. Even then there will be surprises. 

Insurance will be expensive the first year or two or three. Heck, I've got loads of time in all kinds of airplanes from a Piper Cub to a DC-3 and all kinds of ratings and no accidents and mine is still expensive. Probably the best thing you can do is fly a lot and get an instrument rating.

[Utah20Gflyer]

You should be insurable.  I bought my Mooney with 130 TT and 15 hours of retract so if I could get insurance I’m sure you can as well.  
 

My advice would be to start flying immediately in rentals because how much you flew the previous year will affect how the insurance companies look at you.  A person who hasn’t flown for 10 years and just bought a fast complex plane is going to look like a high risk bet.   It’s going to take time to find and close on an airplane anyway.  Get flying! 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

great minds think alike, but what does that have to do with us?

Took me a minute, but I finally caught up.    I'm still on my second cup of coffee.

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, Wing Nut said:

Greetings, all.  I hold ASEL and Instrument-airplane privileges, with ~750 hrs total, ~200 hrs in high-performance, and ~25 hrs of retract time in an Arrow.  Formerly owned a Socata TB-9 Tampico and a Cessna 172R.  I have a solid 1.1 hrs in the last 10 years.

A new-to-me aircraft could be in my future again.  I've taken a fancy to the post-1977 201 series.  Obviously, some training is in order.  Rather than merely refresh my flight review, I thought a commercial rating was more the path forward.  Not only to genuinely refresh my skills, but with the added benefit of presumably lower insurance rates when I go to buy.  However, with the geographic constraints that I face commuting to work, the dizzying turnover in instructors lately, and let's just say the challenge of finding an available rental aircraft I'd trust my life to, obtaining that training has been hard to do.  Thus, I'm considering solving the aircraft availability conundrum by buying an airplane in which to train.  

I seek the collective wisdom of the anonymous internet to inform my decision making. For starters, if I decide to buy now, am I even insurable? If I can get insurance, would it be so expensive that my training for the same number of hours in a rental would be cheaper, assuming that rentals are available?  Presumably, the added time-in-type I'd get by getting an instructor to train me in my own aircraft would "reduce" my future insurance costs.  What are higher-TIT folks paying for full coverage with ~$130k hull values?  Is a commercial rating actually going to materially affect my rates? What else can I be doing to make myself a competent pilot attractive to insurers? An inquiring mind wants to know.... 

Just do it,   remember to put the gear down and you'll be fine. 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Wing Nut said:

Thus, I'm considering solving the aircraft availability conundrum by buying an airplane in which to train.  

I advise getting a hangar before you do anything else.  If you buy a nice Mooney, it would be a shame to have it out on a tie-down somewhere.  And brace yourself for the first annual.  I'm sure others will have examples of a $2,000 first-year annual, but hope is not a plan.

[Wing Nut]

All good advice (and for the record, I do read before posting), and that's the calculus at hand -- when to pay and to whom for maximum gain.  When I was training, I rarely went three weeks between lessons, and I generally flew every week -- often twice a day.  Now FFS that's seen as "hogging" an instructor at my local place, because they are in short supply.  I've got renters insurance at the moment, so I might as well avail myself of that (can do so away from my home airport), if for no other reason than to fly to look at candidate airplanes.  Agreed that planes are sold for a reason.  The best maintenance money that you can spend is that which keeps you from buying junk.  It helps that my son is an A&P. 

 

[kortopates]

If your looking for the cheapest avenue, renting will always be cheaper than owning till your flying well above average per year for an owner flown aircraft; especially where I am in southern California where we have some of the cheapest and most competitive rates in the country.

If you pursue Mooney ownership find a well recognized Mooney specific instructor to help you get comfortable and be able to take charge of the aircraft. That's likely going to take longer than insurance requires to solo, but it varies greatly with the individual. 

The Commercial rating won't get you a significant discount like the instrument rating does, not from what I see. Time in type and an instrument rating are the most helpful so you just need the time in type and recency of experience.

You might even chose to do the Commercial in a trainer TAA or retractable in lieu of the Mooney only because it'll be easier to do in slower draggier aircraft at least till you have several hundred hours in your Mooney. The less draggy Mooney floats and floats when not on perfect speed making the precision landings harder in my opinion; especially the power off 180 allowing -0 to +200' and the short field allowing -0 to +100'. I have a Mid body Mooney client that is ready for commercial check ride now but with lots of hours in type. I'd suggest not doing it in the Mooney just for the rating but because your willing to do the extra work to become very competent in your Mooney. 

Edited May 5 by kortopates

[Wing Nut]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

because your willing to do the extra work to become very competent in your Mooney.

^^^^ This.

[bcg]

You'll be able to get insurance, they'll want you to have some number of hours dual in the Mooney with a CFI that meets their criteria before you can solo.  It'll be a little more the first year because you have limited retract time and not much recent flying time but, the instrument rating will offset that a little bit.  From what I've been told, there isn't much of a break for a commercial rating but, it's worth doing it anyway, I plan to at some point but want to do some Upset Prevention and Recovery, Spin Training and Aerobatics first. 

 

The Mooney Flyer has a good list of CFIs with Mooney experience, I'd reach out to one close to you and go from there - https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

[Paul Thomas]

I was in a similar position as you were. I did a BFR and a little flying to make sure I still liked it and bought an 84J a month ago. I need to get IFR current and intent to get my commercial and instructor tickets in the airplane. No regrets so far!

I had less TT, HP, but a little more retract time and insurance is $2,400/year through Parker. My best advice is to call Parker but based on what I've never, I'd buy and figure out insurance later... even if you have to go through Avemco for the first 3 months to build hours and be more insurable, it's cheaper than renting and you're building experience in the plane you need to be insured.

[RoundTwo]

After being away from flying for more than 30 years, I got the paperwork and logbook in order with appropriate signatures and went plane shopping. I got the requisite 10 hours of transition training in my J model and paid a hefty $4,000 first year insurance premium. My second year dropped by about 40% after accumulating over 200 hours in the J and adding an instrument rating.

It’s been a great experience and one I’m exceptionally glad I decided to jump back into aircraft ownership. My financial advisor isn’t quite as glad I did it. 

[PT20J]

Before I bought my first airplane many years ago, I consulted with a friend that had owned an airplane for several years. He told me that the best part of owning an airplane is that the flying is free. "Free?," I asked. "Yeah," he said. "After paying thousands a year for insurance, thousands a year for maintenance and annual inspection, thousands a year for a hangar, and thousands for upgrades, gas and oil for an hour of flying is essentially free." Of course, gas was cheaper, back then. 

[Ibra]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

"After paying thousands a year for insurance, thousands a year for maintenance and annual inspection, thousands a year for a hangar, and thousands for upgrades, gas and oil for an hour of flying is essentially free." Of course, gas was cheaper, back then

He did established something and he is now selling every +1h at marginal cost to himself, genius ! 

Edited May 5 by Ibra

[Ibra]

7 hours ago, Wing Nut said:

Thus, I'm considering solving the aircraft availability conundrum by buying an airplane

That is the right way to do it,

For insurance, it's non-event really: the first year premium will be expensive however, it won't last as you will be clocking 100h on aircraft to get a good deal on 2nd year

Second, your first annual maintenance will dwarf your first insurance, the only way to lower these is to fly a lot hours on your first year  it's important to buy an aircraft that can fly your mission on day one, not some project...

Edited May 5 by Ibra

[Parker_Woodruff]

Your flight experience won't be a problem at all.  You're insurable assuming no "way out there" underwriting data...

[dkkim73]

@Wing Nut

Based on my experience last year, I would say things to consider include 1. time to source a good airplane, not trivial, and 2. time to green it up. Even buying a plane that I think was in good shape, there are little bits and thistles to iron out that come up (valve issues, weird idle problems, etc) until you "know it". 

I would also 2nd that the first annual might be more expensive than anticipated. I was able to lead-turn some of this, and work with the seller/broker, but other stuff simply came up later, or was stuff I wanted to do. 

I was new to airplane ownership, you are not, so forgive me if all this is obvious and/or factored into your assessment. 

HTH,

D

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

@Wing Nut

Based on my experience last year, I would say things to consider include 1. time to source a good airplane, not trivial, and 2. time to green it up. Even buying a plane that I think was in good shape, there are little bits and thistles to iron out that come up (valve issues, weird idle problems, etc) until you "know it". 

I would also 2nd that the first annual might be more expensive than anticipated. I was able to lead-turn some of this, and work with the seller/broker, but other stuff simply came up later, or was stuff I wanted to do. 

I was new to airplane ownership, you are not, so forgive me if all this is obvious and/or factored into your assessment. 

HTH,

D

All the things you mention are certainly possibilities for any aircraft. On the other hand, he is shopping for an airframe with a normally aspirated, four cylinder, Lycoming. This not an engine that is typically maintenance intensive. As long as it runs strong during the test flight, oil consumption is normal and the mags have been properly maintained, the odds are that it will have very few issues. 

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

 On the other hand, he is shopping for an airframe with a normally aspirated, four cylinder, Lycoming. This not an engine that is typically maintenance intensive.

Ah, rubbing it in, are we, that I bought Continental's high-performance Rube Goldberg/ Wile E. Coyote device, which I now love and can't abandon?  

Seriously, though, that is a great point! 

David