Heard emergency on radio 4/4/24

[0TreeLemur]

While flying on an IFR flight plan last Thursday over NC, talking to RDU approach, I heard the following (more or less):

aircraft: "Mayday Mayday Mayday 360XS has experienced a total loss of power, the pump is broken and I'm going down" <I guess loss of oil pressure?>

controller: "Aircraft calling Mayday please repeat" 

aircraft: "360XS has an engine failure and I'm going down, where is the nearest airport?"

another aircraft: "Allegiant XXX 130 for 10"

controller: "I want everyone on this frequency to be quiet.  Break. 360XS the nearest airport is TTA.  You are six miles north of the field."

aircraft: "Can you give me a heading?"

controller: "fly heading 200"

aircraft: "I'm at 2900 ft and think I can make it 360XS"

< minute or two later, after controller talked with trouble aircraft and urged new arrivals on frequency to stand by.>

aircraft: "360XS I'm not going to make it to TTA.  What is the highway below me?  I'm going to try and land there.

controller: "That's highway 1."

<that's the transmission I heard from  that pilot>

Today I used the google machine to learn of the outcome. The pilot walked away, but he did impact one vehicle, causing debris to hit another.

https://wset.com/news/local/photos-airplane-crash-lands-on-north-carolina-highway-after-leaving-lynchburg-regional-airport-moncure-fire-department-chatham-county-flightaware-april-2024

Photos show a broken propeller blade.   Maybe I misheard and the pilot actually said "...the prop is broken..."

This raises a question- in this situation is it ethical to land on a busy highway in the case of an engine out?   Looking at google earth, there were not a lot of other options.  According to the TV station reports, it everyone walked away, a fantastic outcome.  But that was far from a guaranteed outcome given that it was 3:40 p.m. on a Thursday and there was traffic on the highway.  Not sure that I would have done anything differently from what this pilot did.  Is it ok to risk the lives of what are essentially uninvolved people to try and save your own?

My first experience hearing a Mayday call.  It sure is attention getting.

[PeteMc]

Ethical may not be the right question, I'd want to know the statistics.  For all the planes that have landed on roadways, let's limit that to busy roadways, how many serious injuries have their been to the auto occupants?  I think I heard one study that said it was negligible, but I couldn't find it in a quick search.  (Might have been something Paul Bertorelli as he's big time into statistics).  

Although a plane may come in 50MPH faster than the cars (on some roads) and be flying right over the top of them.  The plane is eventually going to slow to land.  At that point I'm *assuming* the cars ahead that have no clue the plane is there will keep pulling away as they have no reason to break.  The cars way back will see all this going on and will/should be slowing.  Now the cars right as the plane slows is the tricky part, but I think the reason I've heard of very few injuries is that most of the time the car sees the plane coming down on it's hood and slams on the breaks. 

And yes, there are ones like above where it doesn't work out and there is some damage.  But again, NO INJURIES. 

NOTE: Would love it if someone has any real data on this!

 

[DXB]

If there are large fields vs. a busy roadway I think I'd take the former every time and probably put it in gear up unless surface is very hospitable.  Not only is there less ethical quandary but also I'm still likely to walk away if I keep my head and have better chance of avoiding obstructions and cars.  

If only alternative is the tree tops of a hardwood forest, I might pick the road in an effort to improve my chances (unless it's rush hour).

A desolate road without many obstructions might tempt me to also try to save the plane. 

This plane was a Lancair 360 - I think these approach and stall about 10kt faster than a typical Mooney, adding further challenge.  Good job by the pilot here it seems.

[KLRDMD]

29 minutes ago, DXB said:

This plane was a Lancair 360 - I think these approach and stall about 10kt faster than a typical Mooney, adding further challenge.  Good job by the pilot here it seems.

When I did transition training into my Lancair, I was told the only time you should be below 80 KIAS is when the wheels are on the ground.

[Ragsf15e]

I’d prefer a large field as well but a road is ok if none is available.  The problem with roads is there’s lots of very hard things all around them. Some are hard to recognize until you’re very close.  Street signs, telephone poles, dividers, lights, power lines, not to mention traffic.  They will all ruin your day.  Fields may have fences or water systems but I feel like you can find a big open area.

[hais]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Ethical may not be the right question, I'd want to know the statistics.  For all the planes that have landed on roadways, let's limit that to busy roadways, how many serious injuries have their been to the auto occupants?  I think I heard one study that said it was negligible, but I couldn't find it in a quick search.  (Might have been something Paul Bertorelli as he's big time into statistics).  

Although a plane may come in 50MPH faster than the cars (on some roads) and be flying right over the top of them.  The plane is eventually going to slow to land.  At that point I'm *assuming* the cars ahead that have no clue the plane is there will keep pulling away as they have no reason to break.  The cars way back will see all this going on and will/should be slowing.  Now the cars right as the plane slows is the tricky part, but I think the reason I've heard of very few injuries is that most of the time the car sees the plane coming down on it's hood and slams on the breaks. 

And yes, there are ones like above where it doesn't work out and there is some damage.  But again, NO INJURIES. 

NOTE: Would love it if someone has any real data on this!

 

Hypothetical, suppose you settled on the highway under a canopy - would the outcome be worse? I suppose flying over cars to land makes you more visible...just speculating. 

[Mooney in Oz]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’d prefer a large field as well but a road is ok if none is available.  The problem with roads is there’s lots of very hard things all around them. Some are hard to recognize until you’re very close.  Street signs, telephone poles, dividers, lights, power lines, not to mention traffic.  They will all ruin your day.  Fields may have fences or water systems but I feel like you can find a big open area.

I agree.

IMO the greatest danger in landing on a road vs a field is not traffic, but power lines that are near impossible to see, which can and has in the past ended badly.  It can happen into a field as well, but less likely than a road.

Then there a those that landed on a road that for whatever reason, experienced controllability problems, such as the recent Challenger biz jet attempting to land at Naples resulting in fatalities and either last year or the year before, the M20K that veered off a highway and crashed into a building, which sadly also ended in a fatality. I can’t remember where this was, but some here would. I remember some commenting that overflown fields were available.

If you have no choice as this Lancair pilot seems to have had, then you can only do your best. 

Good to see a successful outcome.

 

[toto]

4 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Then there a those that landed on a road that for whatever reason, experienced controllability problems, such as the recent Challenger biz jet attempting to land at Naples resulting in fatalities and either last year or the year before, the M20K that veered off a highway and crashed into a building, which sadly also ended in a fatality. I can’t remember where this was, but some here would. I remember some commenting that overflown fields were available.

Every time I see the “landed safely, then hit something hard” stories, I wonder about getting a set of those Amsafe airbags. I haven’t seen any data on survivability, but the K model accident you mentioned seemed very survivable until the sudden stop. 

[ArtVandelay]

ATC available here:

https://archive.liveatc.net/krdu/KRDU-Dep-Apr-04-2024-1930Z.mp3


He could have landed in Jordan lake that was under him when he lost an engine.

[Shadrach]

It is an ethical question but a hard one to grapple with in real time. If one were in a car with no brakes at 45mph and had the option of continuing through an active, red lighted intersection or running head on into a concrete overpass pillar, I think many if not most would roll the dice with the intersection.

This guy did a good job. Technically speaking, at any altitude of 2900msl he had a shot at  KTTA (~250msl), but everything would’ve had to go very well and the margins would still be pretty thin. 14:1 glide ratio so he had just under 7 miles before arriving at 250msl if perfectly set up and no wind.  

The outcome could’ve been a little better or much, much, worse. This gamble paid off.

[JayMatt]

Interesting topic. I also question why wheels up land on a paved surface. If you are going to wheels up land why not just pick a field? 

[whiskytango]

I made a landing on a road after an engine failure on my previous K model.  It turned out OK with no injuries to anyone, and damage limited to my left wingtip and the A-pillar of a car that didn’t quite get out of my way.  I would never do it again.  Due to wires across my intended flight path, I had to change to a much more dangerous landing spot than I had originally intended.  The outcome could easily have been tragic with the slightest of changes in conditions (my touchdown and ground roll took me through a intersection with a green light!).  Faced with similar conditions (no fields or other open surfaces within range), I will mush into trees and hope for the best rather than subject innocent bystanders to a situation that is potentially life-threatening, with little they can do to affect the outcome.   

[LANCECASPER]

We all hope that if we have an engine out that we can glide into an airport, but that doesn't seem to happen very often. While a field would be nice, there are usually trees and/or power lines on both ends,  and if the field is plowed that presents other challenges. Having only one chance to get the option right is tough.

After the option of gliding into an airport, I think your chances are probably best on a highway. Cars have maneuverability and can brake or steer to get out of the way. Also with all of the safety equipment on most cars the occupants have a good chance of coming out with little injury. ATC was telling the Mooney in CA (N38RK) which highway was closest when he ran out of fuel. Highway Patrols and EMS can reach you and your passengers and if needed, others, quickly. Once the engine stops the airplane belongs to the insurance company, the responsibility of the pilot is to get himself and his passengers safely on the ground. Ethically, everyone that travels on a highway assumes a certain amount of risk - not that they are expecting to have to compete with an airplane, but with small piston airplanes you see a good outcome frequently in this difficult situation. If on a divided highway, in landing the same direction as traffic is going, my hope would be that as I'm coming down those behind me would have sense enough to brake and those ahead of me wouldn't even notice and keep going, and I'd have a spot to safely set it down.

There's a lot of "if"'s there, but playing these scenes out in our minds ahead of time at least gives us a plan, whether the plan is a field or a highway.

EDIT:All that being said, it's a lot easier landing on a highway in Wyoming than in Los Angeles.

https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=811522887689901&id=100064965902640&mibextid=WC7FNe&rdid=ziiSv6mPKk8oOt60

[LANCECASPER]

22 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

I made a landing on a road after an engine failure on my previous K model.  It turned out OK with no injuries to anyone, and damage limited to my left wingtip and the A-pillar of a car that didn’t quite get out of my way.  I would never do it again.  Due to wires across my intended flight path, I had to change to a much more dangerous landing spot than I had originally intended.  The outcome could easily have been tragic with the slightest of changes in conditions (my touchdown and ground roll took me through a intersection with a green light!).  Faced with similar conditions (no fields or other open surfaces within range), I will mush into trees and hope for the best rather than subject innocent bystanders to a situation that is potentially life-threatening, with little they can do to affect the outcome.   

If there were no injuries and everyone walked away I wouldn't second-guess anything you did. Good job! You did everything right.

[Shadrach]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:36 AM, LANCECASPER said:

We all hope that if we have an engine out that we can glide into an airport, but that doesn't seem to happen very often. While a field would be nice, there are usually trees and/or power lines on both ends,  and if the field is plowed that presents other challenges. Having only one chance to get the option right is tough.

Probably happens more often that you think. They just don't get reported. I personally know of several successful dead stick landings, though some were just relayed as stories from the past. I know of two that happened recently enough for me to hear about it from the source on the same or next day.  One was a Cessna (Carb Ice) and other a Cirrus SR22T. Cirrus was in cruise at 12.5, almost directly above a large airport. No concerns about adequate altitude, only proper energy management. Landing was quiet but otherwise uneventful.  The pilot was chastised by the factory for not pulling the chute (AC was still under warranty).

[Shadrach]

Interesting side note.  Statistically this pilot was super lucky.  The fatal accident rate for the Lancair is 10X the GA average and ~ 40X that of the ubiquitous C172. That data came from the Lancair Owners and Builders Organization.

[0TreeLemur]

10 hours ago, whiskytango said:

I made a landing on a road after an engine failure on my previous K model.  It turned out OK with no injuries to anyone, and damage limited to my left wingtip and the A-pillar of a car that didn’t quite get out of my way.  I would never do it again.  Due to wires across my intended flight path, I had to change to a much more dangerous landing spot than I had originally intended.  The outcome could easily have been tragic with the slightest of changes in conditions (my touchdown and ground roll took me through a intersection with a green light!).  Faced with similar conditions (no fields or other open surfaces within range), I will mush into trees and hope for the best rather than subject innocent bystanders to a situation that is potentially life-threatening, with little they can do to affect the outcome.   

Great insight based on your experience.  Thanks for sharing this. 

[0TreeLemur]

11 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

ATC available here:

https://archive.liveatc.net/krdu/KRDU-Dep-Apr-04-2024-1930Z.mp3

Thanks a bunch for this!  Gave me chills to listen to it again.   At the time it just seemed surreal.  The kid (ok, I'm obviously older than him so I can call him that) flying the Lancair did a fantastic job of staying calm!

I really appreciate @whiskytango's perspective here as someone who has lived this experience.  

 

[Will.iam]

Interesting that the link no longer works.  Is that because they only keep a limited number of days back or is it because the NTSB is investigating it?

[ArtVandelay]

Interesting that the link no longer works.  Is that because they only keep a limited number of days back or is it because the NTSB is investigating it?

Yeah, only 7 days I guess.

[carusoam]

When IO550s were new…

A bunch of Cirri and a Mooney suffered from cracked oil coolers…

Drain all of the oil out of an oil cooler… and your day goes downhill at best glide speed…

The Mooney reportedly landed on a golf course…

There were a bunch of oil cooler replacements in early M20Rs for that reason….

Continental also manufactured the oil cooler….

 

Do you wake up screaming Fore!, and you’re not a golfer…?

 

as far as ethics go…  keep in mind, a Mooney landing gear up on pavement will be stopped in about 200’…

As far as danger goes… avoid roads if there are fields available…

a stout sign post or guy wire can cut a fuel tank open on your trusty Acclaim… getting out of the flaming wreckage may be extra challenging…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:17 AM, Mooney in Oz said:

I agree.

IMO the greatest danger in landing on a road vs a field is not traffic, but power lines that are near impossible to see, which can and has in the past ended badly.  It can happen into a field as well, but less likely than a road.

Then there a those that landed on a road that for whatever reason, experienced controllability problems, such as the recent Challenger biz jet attempting to land at Naples resulting in fatalities and either last year or the year before, the M20K that veered off a highway and crashed into a building, which sadly also ended in a fatality. I can’t remember where this was, but some here would. I remember some commenting that overflown fields were available.

If you have no choice as this Lancair pilot seems to have had, then you can only do your best. 

Good to see a successful outcome.

 

In Military flight school, they made us write on all of our maps “All Roads Have Wires”

Unless it’s a forest or something a road is often not the best choice.