Aspen Rate of Turn Indicator hard to see and follow

[dfurst]

Does anyone else find it hard to see and follow the rate of turn indicator in the Aspen?

From the manual "The Rate of Turn Indicator features tick marks for full and half-standard rate turns (a standard rate turn = 3° per second)"

Sure, there is a small, skinny tick mark and a bold, thicker tick mark at the top of the compass but they are hidden by the large heading number. By the time I see it coming out the side, I am typically way past the standard rate tick.  Forget about being able to see 1/2 tick.

Just me?

[Pinecone]

Who flies standard rate turns????

I agree, it is hard to see.

[dfurst]

9 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Who flies standard rate turns????

I agree, it is hard to see.

Ha!  I was doing touch and goes the other day, really trying to nail my speed and decent rate, and I noticed I was turning too steep. Not good when you are low and slow in an Ovation.  Then I realized, the Rate of Turn indicator was not part of my natural scan.

It is kind of like my original, round altimeter and air speed indicator, I have a bad habit of looking at them instead of the tapes on the Aspen.  Almost feel like I need to put stickies over them.  If I still had the original turn and bank, I am sure my eyes would go there!

[Pinecone]

I don't use rate of turn for the pattern.  I use angle of bank.

[PeteMc]

It was one of the comments I heard when I was redoing my panel.  So the one original flight instruments I kept was the Turn Coordinator.  

I am trying to make myself look at the Aspen though to get used to it.  Not sure what I'd put in where the TC is now, but if it fails, I may look to see what's out there vs replacing it.

 

[802flyer]

Yeah, I habitually look at my “steam” turn coordinator rather than the Aspen when it’s relevant.


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[0TreeLemur]

I agree that the turn rate indicator on an Aspen is hard to read in a scan.  The Aspen VSI isn't much better.  I had one open 3-1/8" hole in my panel and decided to go with a VSI.  For me, that is a better steam gauge to have for flying a stabilized approach compared to a TC.   It seems I'm always flying in turbulence lately and holding a standard or half-standard rate turn is impossible anyway!

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The Aspen VSI isn't much better. 

I get that they certified it a certain way...  But it's been years and even though I don't know much about the certification process, I can't see them having to start from scratch to enlarge basically ALL of the numbers and indicators like VSI, TC, etc.  They're allowed to make Software modifications, so I would address it as just a SW modification of the graphics.

Hey ASPEN!  If you're here, get on with it!  The graphics improvements are WAY overdue.  Increase to the screen pixels was nice, but a crisper tiny line just doesn't cut it.

 

[dfurst]

10 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I agree that the turn rate indicator on an Aspen is hard to read in a scan.  The Aspen VSI isn't much better.  I had one open 3-1/8" hole in my panel and decided to go with a VSI.  For me, that is a better steam gauge to have for flying a stabilized approach compared to a TC.   It seems I'm always flying in turbulence lately and holding a standard or half-standard rate turn is impossible anyway!

Interesting.  The VSI is one of the Aspen indicators I do follow in my scan.  It is one of the things that makes intuitive sense to me on Aspen. Funny how different pilots who learned on round, steam gauges adapt differently. 

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I get that they certified it a certain way...  But it's been years and even though I don't know much about the certification process, I can't see them having to start from scratch to enlarge basically ALL of the numbers and indicators like VSI, TC, etc.  They're allowed to make Software modifications, so I would address it as just a SW modification of the graphics.

Hey ASPEN!  If you're here, get on with it!  The graphics improvements are WAY overdue.  Increase to the screen pixels was nice, but a crisper tiny line just doesn't cut it.

 

On the of the improvements listed in the MAX improvements is "Font and Window Enlargement capability"

 

[dfurst]

43 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

On the of the improvements listed in the MAX improvements is "Font and Window Enlargement capability"

 

I have the Max, still hides the Rate of Turn behind the compass heading. 

[LANCECASPER]

21 minutes ago, dfurst said:

I have the Max, still hides the Rate of Turn behind the compass heading. 

I was only commenting on the ability to change the font size.

I had two Aspens in an Ovation  that I owned and three in a Bravo, which I upgraded to MAX units in 2019.  I always just used the markers on the AI for my turns (20 degrees roughly standard rate).

[PeteMc]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

On the of the improvements listed in the MAX improvements is "Font and Window Enlargement capability"

I've never seen a option where I can increase the Airspeed or Altitude Fonts.  And I don't know what the original Aspen had for Turn Rate, Inclinometer, Climb/Descent, etc. 

Yes, they made big changes in the Max.  But the video mentions the hardware with a much better display and video card.  Also a much better processor.  But Font enlargement would be on the software side.  So if there's something I've missed where is it?   

ADDED:  I did just get the latest Software, so to make sure it wasn't a difference in my old SW and the latest I just went to the Aspen site and the Pilot Guide that says "NEW" next to it.  Searched for "font" and "character" and there were zero entries.  Searched for "size" and there were three entries, none of which had to do with the Font/Characters on the display.  

 

 

Edited March 28, 2024 by PeteMc

[0TreeLemur]

16 hours ago, dfurst said:

Interesting.  The VSI is one of the Aspen indicators I do follow in my scan.  It is one of the things that makes intuitive sense to me on Aspen. Funny how different pilots who learned on round, steam gauges adapt differently. 

You nailed it.  I learned on steam gauges and flew behind them for almost 40 years before my first experience with tapes and intermittent indicators such as rate of turn and VSI on the Aspen.  My scan is much more in tune with pointers.  A quick glance at an altimeter, ASI, or VSI just gives me all the info I need.  A tape requires reading the numbers.  An intermittent indicator requires a lot more mental activity (1) is it there? (2) is it changing? (3) how fast? (4) if I push/pull or turn the yoke does it react?  (5) how much?  My neural network can scan steam gauges three or four times while doing all that stuff.  I am attuned to interpreting rates of changes of needles.  I miss that with the Aspen.

Because my panel has only one Aspen, it retains 3-1/8"  AI, ASI, Altimeter, and VSI.  In a pinch those are still my goto.  Under normal IFR when things are pretty steady, I can stare at the Aspen and feel quite in sync with the airplane.  But when I go through a bumpy cloud wondering which way is up, I rely more on the round dials.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

You nailed it.  I learned on steam gauges and flew behind them for almost 40 years before my first experience with tapes and intermittent indicators such as rate of turn and VSI on the Aspen.  My scan is much more in tune with pointers.  A quick glance at an altimeter, ASI, or VSI just gives me all the info I need.  A tape requires reading the numbers.  An intermittent indicator requires a lot more mental activity (1) is it there? (2) is it changing? (3) how fast? (4) if I push/pull or turn the yoke does it react?  (5) how much?  My neural network can scan steam gauges three or four times while doing all that stuff.  I am attuned to interpreting rates of changes of needles.  I miss that with the Aspen.

That's exactly why I haven't "upgraded" to digital, I can read my steam gages faster.than I can focus on the airspeed number, to say nothing of the things that disappear! I reference my IVSI frequently, especially inside a bumpy cloud.

[LANCECASPER]

13 hours ago, PeteMc said:

  But Font enlargement would be on the software side.  So if there's something I've missed where is it?   

It's been 2-1/2 years since i flew behind an Aspen. I remember changing the font size, it seems to me it was on the 2nd or 3rd page of options. @Marauder has flown behind Aspens for a long time. He will probably know. 

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

it seems to me it was on the 2nd or 3rd page of options

I'll check it out next time I'm at the Airport.  Interesting that it is not in their Pilot Guide, but then it wouldn't be the first time someone came up with some non standard name so you can't search for what you're really looking for.  

 

[Pinecone]

I found the Aspen VSI was OK for trends, but not so great for precision.  The rate of turn was just plain hard to see.

I learned steam gauges, but also have a number of hours with tapes in the HUD, so have no problem switching back and forth.

I do prefer a steam gauge altimeter for a quick glance.  Long hand should be straight up or straight down.  EASY.

 

[PeteMc]

54 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I do prefer a steam gauge altimeter for a quick glance.

Same reason that after a short period of clocks switching to be only digital, there was a big move back to have a lot of clocks have both hands and numbers.  Now I look for the Altitude Bug, but wish they had designed the tapes more like the combo clocks.  Maybe with a circle around the Altitude with some bright dots. Or even just one dot for the Hundreds. 

 

[skykrawler]

Of course the common instrument installed is a combination turn rate / turn coordinator.  

If all you need it a turn coordinator then get one of these....and ditch the gyro rate indicator.