Mooney Down (03/25/24) - Near St. Augustine-Northeast Florida Regional Airport, FL (UST)

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Bunti said:

I never have locked the baggage door before a flight. In my Mooney M20F, it cannot be opened from the inside. But in case of an emergency, it can be opened easily from the outside by anybody on the ground with no tools. 

There are at least a couple threads here on fairly easy ways to add an inside latch to the older doors.    Here's a recent one if there's interest:
 

 

[mike_elliott]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:47 PM, midlifeflyer said:

Selling the LLC is not too likely. My information is that the airplane was sold just last week, so I wouldn't expect the FAA database to show the new ownership.

There is so much more to proper transition training than just learning to land a Mooney or pounding out 10 hrs for insurance requirements. A new owner needs to be advised of best practices, Care, and all systems as well as how to yank and bank. While not saying a popped open baggage door in flight caused this or a result of baggage door ignorance ( the NTSB gets to suggest cause) a popped open baggage door is preventable and Is a distraction at best.

[skykrawler]

Too much stock is placed in NTSB reports.   Especially in the light aircraft domain.  Here is an example:

 

 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, skykrawler said:

Too much stock is placed in NTSB reports.   Especially in the light aircraft domain.  Here is an example:

That was most likely South African authorities rather than the NTSB.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

There is so much more to proper transition training than just learning to land a Mooney or pounding out 10 hrs for insurance requirements. A new owner needs to be advised of best practices, Care, and all systems as well as how to yank and bank. While not saying a popped open baggage door in flight caused this or a result of baggage door ignorance ( the NTSB gets to suggest cause) a popped open baggage door is preventable and Is a distraction at best.

Obviously. Not sure what that has to so with selling an LLC though.

[LANCECASPER]

Obviously. Not sure what that has to so with selling an LLC though.

I imagine he was commenting about transition training since you mentioned the airplane had been sold just last week.

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I imagine he was commenting about transition training since you mentioned the airplane had been sold just last week.

Maybe simple  miscommunication. That comment was only about buying an LLC. But I don’t automatically equate a new purchase with lack of type experience anyway. 

[flyboy0681]

20 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I haven’t read this whole thread, @Shadrach, but just in case this hasn’t already been posted. I miss him, too.  

I have never had a door pop open in flight in a Mooney, but I did have it happen once many years ago just after rotation while taking off from Torrance, California in a new-to-me Cherokee 180 that I was flying back home to Florida.  It was noisy and made it hard to use the radio, but once I cleared all of the airspace to the east I slowed down, yawed the airplane, and managed to get it closed in flight.  It had no impact whatsoever that I could discern on either the airplane’s handling qualities or the accuracy of the flight instruments.  

 

Man, I wish this picture wasn't posted. My Monday morning was going so well.

[N9201A]

There is so much more to proper transition training than just learning to land a Mooney or pounding out 10 hrs for insurance requirements. A new owner needs to be advised of best practices, Care, and all systems as well as how to yank and bank. While not saying a popped open baggage door in flight caused this or a result of baggage door ignorance ( the NTSB gets to suggest cause) a popped open baggage door is preventable and Is a distraction at best.

Yes Mike, many new owners want to knock out the insurance-required 5 or 10 hours on the “new to me” cross-country ferry bringing the new airplane home. This works against actually learning how to fly your new bird and handle cross-wind, bounced landings, and other scenarios.

Personally, I always try to incorporate a cabin door unlatch on every checkout I do, as it’s something likely to happen to a new Mooney owner at some point in their pleasure flying. I want them to experience it with a CFI in the right seat. As others have noted, it’s a non-event. And knowing your aircraft’s “gaits” (power+pitch=performance) helps alleviate whatever weird indications one may get. Personally I’ve never seen a 10-KT diff in IAS from a cabin door — but l would be working with my tech to troubleshoot if I did.

This is sad, and avoidable. Let’s work to prevent future incidents.

[Skates97]

10 hours ago, N9201A said:

Yes Mike, many new owners want to knock out the insurance-required 5 or 10 hours on the “new to me” cross-country ferry bringing the new airplane home. This works against actually learning how to fly your new bird and handle cross-wind, bounced landings, and other scenarios.
 

 

Agree, I'm not sure how a bunch of hours in cruise helps learning a new plane. Once settled in and leaned out there isn't a whole lot to do.

When I did my transition training we did a lot of airport hopping so I would get take off, climb (short), level off, descend and land, over and over. I enjoyed going to different airports with wildly different runway lengths/widths and where you didn't have the normal landmarks on the ground. KAJO at 3200x60 looks a lot different on final than KSBD at 10,000x200.

We even tried to find some where we could get cross-winds. By the time we met the dual and I moved on to the required solo hours I felt pretty good in the plane.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

Agree, I'm not sure how a bunch of hours in cruise helps learning a new plane. Once settled in and leaned out there isn't a whole lot to do.

When I did my transition training we did a lot of airport hopping so I would get take off, climb (short), level off, descend and land, over and over. I enjoyed going to different airports with wildly different runway lengths/widths and where you didn't have the normal landmarks on the ground.

Me, too. Think we hit most fields within 100 miles over a couple of weeks, after finishing basic aircraft control, use of prop and mixture levers, and I showed I could lower the wheels and land.

Most were straight; some had a hump at one end or the other, or both ends; one had a hump in the middle, so the other end was not visible. Some were open, some obstructed, some busy, some empty. Some were in open fields, some surrounded by trees, on a river bank or a hilltop. Variety adds to learning!

I had 62 hours in my logbook when Mooney ownership began . . . Those 15 hours were exciting and fun! But I didn't enjoy the required 5 hours actual/simulated IMC, that was work.

[LANCECASPER]

On 4/1/2024 at 6:08 AM, midlifeflyer said:

Maybe simple  miscommunication. That comment was only about buying an LLC. But I don’t automatically equate a new purchase with lack of type experience anyway. 

I don't automatically equate a new purchase with a lack of experience either, but it's hard not to at least question a new purchase with a lack of experience when there's a stall spin crash fatality in the first few days of ownership.

[Schllc]

Best training you can get after becoming familiar is multiple approaches at airports that are very close together.
When I did my initial training in the Aerostar, it was November, our first day and my first flight was in full ifr.  (I had 10 hours dual already prior to the initial training)
We had 800-1000 ft ceilings, mist and complete overcast with less than 1 mile visibility. No cb, no storms, temps in the mid 40’s, but  low visibility.
We did new plane, new avionics, multiple approaches all at airports within 20 min of my home field. Weather kept most people on the ground so we didn’t have traffic to contend with, but we flew for three hours, I did about 12 approaches and 20 landings as the weather got progressively better. 
When we were done with the morning flight, I was exhausted.  did an hour of ground, had lunch and went back up for another three hours. 
After three days of flying like this, going through all the scenarios multiple times, working through a long syllabus, I felt very comfortable with the plane. 
when you get to the point where you can handle full saturation and still fly the plane you can feel the progress. I didn’t plan it this way, but I’m glad it happened, because I really got to know my plane. 

[midlifeflyer]

It’s interesting that this accident is not even mentioned in the NTSB database. No, I’m not looking for even a preliminary report. Just that something is there.

[Jetpilot86]

This is a plane I took an internet look at before ultimately ending up with my Bravo.  Definitely got my attention. T&P to those involved.

[201er]

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193984/pdf

 

[LANCECASPER]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193984/pdf

 

With everything they did after the accident it's easy to see why it takes so long for the preliminary report. 

Too low and too slow. It's easy to say that could never happen to me, but when your thoughts are that the baggage door has just "ripped off" of my "new" airplane and I want to get it on the ground to see how much damage there is, that's a major distraction. Ironically if he had got it on the ground safely he could have closed it properly and most likely there wouldn't have been any damage. Very sobering.

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

With everything they did after the accident it's easy to see why it takes so long for the preliminary report. 

Too low and too slow. It's easy to say that could never happen to me, but when your thoughts are that the baggage door has just "ripped off" of my "new" airplane and I want to get it on the ground to see how much damage there is, that's a major distraction. Ironically if he had got it on the ground safely he could have closed it properly and most likely there wouldn't have been any damage. Very sobering.

The way I read the report, all physical evidence suggests that the baggage door was down and locked and only opened under the force of impact.  
 

Reread the second paragraph on page 3 and I think you will change your view.

[201er]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

The way I read the report, all physical evidence suggests that the baggage door was down and locked and only opened under the force of impact.  
 

Reread the second paragraph on page 3 and I think you will change your view.

So which door popped in flight?

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

So which door popped in flight?

Process of elimination suggests the passenger door. It’s also the door that is more likely to be improperly closed. It’s possible the upper latch was not properly engaged but that it was not detected until after departure. Or it’s possible he tried to close the door in flight and was only able to engage the aft pin. We’ll never know for sure.
 

The NTSB did not come right out in say the baggage door was closed, but made it clear that a when the baggage door was in the closed position, a crease in the baggage door skin aligned with a crease in the fuselage skin, suggesting energy transfer through the door while in the closed position.  The baggage door latch mechanism was found closed with the pins extended and the key lock was in the locked position. Gouges in the striker plates are consistent with the pins digging into the metal as the baggage door was forced open on impact

[wombat]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The way I read the report, all physical evidence suggests that the baggage door was down and locked and only opened under the force of impact.  
 

Reread the second paragraph on page 3 and I think you will change your view.

I reread that paragraph and it did change my mind.  I agree with you that the baggage door was probably closed and locked, and therefore it must have been the passenger door that was open. 

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The way I read the report, all physical evidence suggests that the baggage door was down and locked and only opened under the force of impact.  
 

Reread the second paragraph on page 3 and I think you will change your view.

Ok I think you're right. 

Not allowing the distraction factor to cause you to stop flying the airplane  applies even more in that case - he could have flown with the front door cracked open to his destination and closed it after exiting. The only thing he would have lost is a few knots. Studying the Emergency procedures in the POH the days before closing the deal and having that reinforced in transition training would most likely have prevented that.

We may never know -but having 700+ hours and a commercial ticket may have worked against him in this case, perhaps leading him to think that he didn't need the additional training. 

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Ok I think you're right. 

Not allowing the distraction factor to cause you to stop flying the airplane  applies even more in that case - he could have flown with the front door cracked open to his destination and closed it after exiting. The only thing he would have lost is a few knots. Studying the Emergency procedures in the POH the days before closing the deal and having that reinforced in transition training would most likely have prevented that.

We may never know -but having 700+ hours and a commercial ticket may have worked against him in this case, perhaps leading him to think that he didn't need the additional training. 

He sure sounded calm and confident in the radio transmissions. Did not sound bothered in the least.

I thought maybe a base to final stall but the impact does not look like it followed a stalling turn at low altitude.

[LANCECASPER]

He sure sounded calm and confident in the radio transmissions. Did not sound bothered in the least.
I thought maybe a base to final stall but the impact does not look like it followed a stalling turn at low altitude.

The low airspeeds and altitude in the NTSB pre-lim looks like he was distracted. Usually new Mooney pilots come in hot and high.


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[EricJ]

I still wonder whether the additional noise made him think he was faster than he was.    Slowed down to make it closer to normal noise level.    Totally speculation on my part, but I'm having a hard time coming up with other explanations.