ADS-B Taylor Swift

[kerry]

I thought this was a funny news article about Taylor Swift.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/taylor-swift-threatened-sue-college-202729060.html

[kerry]

By the way her N# is N898TS if anyone is interested in tracker her.  I hope Mooneyspace doesn't get sued now.

[N201MKTurbo]

She sold N898TS two weeks ago. I heard it was because her boyfriend couldn’t stand up in it.

[Ibra]

I understand getting ADSB & ModeS privacy is easier and cheap these days, at least in FAA land, it would cost way more than hiring her lawyer to muddle with the pigs? 

It's interesting that celebrities jets (pop-star, football, soccer...) make a whole story out of flight tracking, however, when you look at corporate jets they seem to do just fine to keep their sensitive trips under the radar

 

Edited February 7, 2024 by Ibra

[kortopates]

9 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I understand getting ADSB & ModeS privacy is easier and cheap these days, at least in FAA land, it would cost way more than hiring her lawyer to muddle with the pigs? 

It's interesting that celebrities jets (pop-star, football, soccer...) make a whole story out of flight tracking, however, when you look at corporate jets they seem to do just fine to keep their sensitive trips under the radar

 

But blocking your N number only prevent people from using the popular products like FlightAware. Ads-B exchange can still be used to track a blocked N number because its tracks the raw data's Hex code rather than N number.

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, kortopates said:

But blocking your N number only prevent people from using the popular products like FlightAware. Ads-B exchange can still be used to track a blocked N number because its tracks the raw data's Hex code rather than N number.

There are two privacy levels One is the basic blocking which, as you say, can still be tracked by ADS-B exchange. Then there's the full PIA program where they change the HEX code and the underlying N-Number. It's not completely foolproof. For example, if you acquire knowledge of the "fake" N-Number, and know which "real" N-Number has it,  ADS-B Exchange can track it.

[N201MKTurbo]

Plus, if somebody wants to covertly track a corporate jet, they are not going to publish it on a web page. People who track celebrities, usually publish it on a website where they are trying to monetize it. 

[Ibra]

47 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Ads-B exchange can still be used to track a blocked N number because its tracks the raw data's Hex code rather than N number.

You can have temporary ICAO Hex code via PIA

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PIA/Application.aspx

Obviously, if one can get the temporary hex code and placeholder tail (they bribe someone or do lot of data crunching) they can still track that on ADSb

 

Edited February 7, 2024 by Ibra

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, Ibra said:

You can have change temporary ICAO Hex code

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PIA/Application.aspx

Obviously, if one can get the temporary hex code (they bribe) they can still track it 

 

You don't have to bribe anybody, there are geeks who hang out at the airport and wait till the airplane takes off and then sees what HEX code it is squacking and publishes it.

[Ibra]

I edited, yes they can track with data crunching and spotting as well…

Edited February 7, 2024 by Ibra

[Ibra]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Plus, if somebody wants to covertly track a corporate jet, they are not going to publish it on a web page

That may probably explain the selection bias why we don’t hear much about corporate business (while for celebrities it’s part of the show to make a show out of it)

Sounds like one should get J3 with no electrical system 

Edited February 7, 2024 by Ibra

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Ibra said:

That may probably explain the selection bias why we don’t hear much about this (while for celebrities it’s part of the show)

Nobody is waiting at the end of the runway waiting for N201MK to take off. (At least I don't think there are....)

[DCarlton]

I've gotta go review the rules for when I can flip my handy dandy anonymous mode switch...  wired it up but never use it.  

[NotarPilot]

I have mixed feelings about this. While I think it’s an incredibly d*****bag thing to do, I don’t necessarily think he’s doing anything illegal or that he can be sued for if he’s simply republishing open source data. Perhaps if someone committed some nefarious act against one of these “celebrities” and it could be proven that the published racking data facilitated that act then maybe he could have some legal liability. However, I’m not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express las night.

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, Ibra said:

Sounds like one should get J3 with no electrical system 

Those trips to Tokyo might take awhile

[GeeBee]

Currently there is technology called ALPR, automated license plate readers which automatically read your license plate. There is strict limitations on the use of them and access to the data. For instance at the ATL airport your license is read when enter the parking lot and a vehicle with ALPR equipment drives through the lots daily to record the parked cars and references the data with geo-location. Several times a day, there are travelers who forget where they parked their car and they have to go to the Airport police station who are the only people allowed to access the data. After verifying ownership they take you to your mis-placed car. Equally so, there are ALPR unit mounted on patrol cars (those two boxes on the truck lid) which continuously scan plates for stolen vehicles or wanted individuals. The use of and the storage of the data varies by state but suffice to say, the data cannot be stored very long if at all and its use limited by law. My car wash uses ALPR to verify my membership, but it cannot store, when or the fact that I was even there. It can only "verify" I am on the membership list.

I find it interesting that the general public and the state and Federal authorities have a lot of "heartburn" over ALPR data, but have zero problem depositing ADS-B data willy nilly to anyone. Yeah, the crazy can wait outside the Montana for John Lennon but the fact is John Lennon could have used the secure entrance but chose to meet 'his public". I think we all have a right to be "modestly secure" in our comings and goings. The belching out of this ADS-B data would not be tolerated by the average citizen just as ALPR data is not. Heck we even require dispersal of firearms personally identifiable sales data and its destruction from central databases after 90 days. Why? Because they have better lobbyists than we do in aviation.

Of course I have an Alexa in my house, but that is my choice.

[slowflyin]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Currently there is technology called ALPR, automated license plate readers which automatically read your license plate. There is strict limitations on the use of them and access to the data. For instance at the ATL airport your license is read when enter the parking lot and a vehicle with ALPR equipment drives through the lots daily to record the parked cars and references the data with geo-location. Several times a day, there are travelers who forget where they parked their car and they have to go to the Airport police station who are the only people allowed to access the data. After verifying ownership they take you to your mis-placed car. Equally so, there are ALPR unit mounted on patrol cars (those two boxes on the truck lid) which continuously scan plates for stolen vehicles or wanted individuals. The use of and the storage of the data varies by state but suffice to say, the data cannot be stored very long if at all and its use limited by law. My car wash uses ALPR to verify my membership, but it cannot store, when or the fact that I was even there. It can only "verify" I am on the membership list.

I find it interesting that the general public and the state and Federal authorities have a lot of "heartburn" over ALPR data, but have zero problem depositing ADS-B data willy nilly to anyone. Yeah, the crazy can wait outside the Montana for John Lennon but the fact is John Lennon could have used the secure entrance but chose to meet 'his public". I think we all have a right to be "modestly secure" in our comings and goings. The belching out of this ADS-B data would not be tolerated by the average citizen just as ALPR data is not. Heck we even require dispersal of firearms personally identifiable sales data and its destruction from central databases after 90 days. Why? Because they have better lobbyists than we do in aviation.

Of course I have an Alexa in my house, but that is my choice.

Interesting.  I'm in the process of upgrading the cameras around my hangar and have an ALPR capable camera in the "cart" for purchase.  I'm located adjacent the access gate and thought it would be useful to the tenants on the field if anything came up missing.   As license plates are readily viewable by anyone, I assumed they were not subject to any privacy concerns.   Seems odd that taking a picture of a license plate at a location that is readily viewable by the public would be illegal.   Thanks for the heads up.  I'll certainly dig a little deeper.   

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The belching out of this ADS-B data would not be tolerated by the average citizen just as ALPR data is not

In the case of ADSB, the "belching out" is via radio waves -- that's the nature of the system.  No belching = no ADSB.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

In the case of ADSB, the "belching out" is via radio waves -- that's the nature of the system.  No belching = no ADSB.

Not quite. The data available to the general public, such as FlightAware  could be quite different than that available to ATC. It is simply a matter of what data fields are allowed out and right now the FAA is being very lazy in its data transmission policy. I suspect and fear it will change only when malevolent actors weaponize it. IMHO the N number or call sign is not needed for FIS traffic. 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, slowflyin said:

Interesting.  I'm in the process of upgrading the cameras around my hangar and have an ALPR capable camera in the "cart" for purchase.  I'm located adjacent the access gate and thought it would be useful to the tenants on the field if anything came up missing.   As license plates are readily viewable by anyone, I assumed they were not subject to any privacy concerns.   Seems odd that taking a picture of a license plate at a location that is readily viewable by the public would be illegal.   Thanks for the heads up.  I'll certainly dig a little deeper.   

I doubt taking the picture is illegal, but using it to find any personal information on the owner might be, e.g., accessing state databases, etc.    Laws may vary by state, but I suspect you're right that it'd be difficult to police taking pictures, and in the event of a crime Law Enforcement may actually want access to a photo with relevant information.

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, slowflyin said:

Interesting.  I'm in the process of upgrading the cameras around my hangar and have an ALPR capable camera in the "cart" for purchase.  I'm located adjacent the access gate and thought it would be useful to the tenants on the field if anything came up missing.   As license plates are readily viewable by anyone, I assumed they were not subject to any privacy concerns.   Seems odd that taking a picture of a license plate at a location that is readily viewable by the public would be illegal.   Thanks for the heads up.  I'll certainly dig a little deeper.   

There is no law against taking a picture of a license plate. There are laws against taking pictures and storing them in a data base which varies from stay to state

[Hank]

26 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Not quite. The data available to the general public, such as FlightAware  could be quite different than that available to ATC. It is simply a matter of what data fields are allowed out and right now the FAA is being very lazy in its data transmission policy. I suspect and fear it will change only when malevolent actors weaponize it. IMHO the N number or call sign is not needed for FIS traffic. 

What's much more worrisome is that I can type an N number into any search engine and get the owner's full name and address . . . . 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Not quite. The data available to the general public, such as FlightAware  could be quite different than that available to ATC. It is simply a matter of what data fields are allowed out and right now the FAA is being very lazy in its data transmission policy. I suspect and fear it will change only when malevolent actors weaponize it. IMHO the N number or call sign is not needed for FIS traffic. 

As far as I know, every "dispenser" of ADS-B data (FlightAware et al.) conform to the various programs for limiting data dissemination.  You won't find Taylor Swift on FlightAware because her organization has asked that her data not be published.  On the other hand, apparently ADS-B Exchange gets no data handed to them and, so far, have told the FAA and the various "data suppression" schemes to pound sand.  They get their data from thousands of people all over the world with a little Software Defined Radio and an Internet connection.  By aggregating the meta data from all those unstoppable radio waves, they can follow any airplane with ADS-B "out".

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

As far as I know, every "dispenser" of ADS-B data (FlightAware et al.) conform to the various programs for limiting data dissemination.  You won't find Taylor Swift on FlightAware because her organization has asked that her data not be published.  On the other hand, apparently ADS-B Exchange gets no data handed to them and, so far, have told the FAA and the various "data suppression" schemes to pound sand.  They get their data from thousands of people all over the world with a little Software Defined Radio and an Internet connection.  By aggregating the meta data from all those unstoppable radio waves, they can follow any airplane with ADS-B "out".

Not quite. Taylor Swift's airplane as well as other use the PIA program which prevents the casual data user as well as Flight Aware et all from tracking them. However there are ways for the sophisticated user around that as Elon Musk found out. Once you have their ICAO ID, it is game over on data suppression. 

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I doubt taking the picture is illegal, but using it to find any personal information on the owner might be, e.g., accessing state databases, etc.    Laws may vary by state, but I suspect you're right that it'd be difficult to police taking pictures, and in the event of a crime Law Enforcement may actually want access to a photo with relevant information.

In the state of GA it is illegal for law enforcement to access a state data base (i.e. license plate records) unless it is for three reasons. One is an felony act. Two is a misdemeanor which means the officer has to observe the act and three is for officer's safety. For instance, my registration expires upon my birthdate on the 5th. I was pulled over on the 15th for an expired tag, even though I paid the fee and had the tag. The officer explained it was 50-50 on the 15th so he ran my plate. That is violation of the law as there was no observable misdemeanor only a supposition (no observable misdemeanor). It got pretty testy in court and I appealed out of municipal court to Superior court where the City Attorney begged me not to go forward.  I agreed to plead no contest if the City Attorney agreed to explain to the rookie officer how he broke the law and next time might not turn out so well. I shook hands with the officer and told him I just wanted him to understand how he broke the law as much as I did.