Trade Bravo For Mirage

[drstephensugiono]

I want 2 extra seats that goes the same speed..............What do U think?

[jrwilson]

I think most Mirages only have 1 seat, and they're significantly more expensive than a Mooney.  The upkeep on them must be horrible.  What were you thinking, a Mirage III or an F1?  I think the Mirage 2000D has 2 seats, but I'm pretty sure you can't import those to the US, the ATF would certainly get involved. 

You weren't talking about a Piper were you?  I hope not, I'd rather deal with the ATF.

[jrwilson]

Is this what you mean?      It is late and I am at work and bored.

[johnggreen]

Stephen,

The Malibu/Mirage is the logical "step-up" from the Bravo.  As you say, the speeds are equivalent, two more seats, lots more room, and pressurization.  The ideal step up would be to the Meridian and turbine reliability, but that is, shall we say, a bigger dream.

My flight profile is 500 to 650 nm trips and wearing oxygen gets to be tiring, how nice that pressurization would be.  Though I've never even flown one, I did study operating costs and though more than the Bravo, still in the same ball park.

For now, I'm still paying tuition for two sons to very expensive professional schools so the Bravo stays, but I too can dream.

Jgreen

[Parker_Woodruff]

Another reasonable choice would be a Cessna T-210 or P-210.  Back seat pax can't be too big.

I'm not sure on the actual useful loads of the PA46-310P, 350, or 350P.  Be sure they can carry the 6 people plus bags you're looking to carry.

If you're looking on the newer side (closer to $1MM airframe) and can afford 50 gallons/hour, then consider a TBM700.

[stevesm20b]

The Cessna P210 is a better buy than the Piper Malibu/Mirage right now. You can find nice P210s between 150 and 200K. Six seats, 190kts on 18gph, and pressurized comfort. I was a parner in one for a while.

[231flyer]

Two years ago I traded down from an Eclipse Jet (VFR, non-FIKI jet) to a Malibu Mirage.  I am very happy with my choice so far.  Although I seriously considered a Meridien/Jetprop I was not convinced of their fuel/payload capacity.  The TBM 850 series is in a class by itself and compares closer to a light jet than a turboprop or VLJ both in acqusition and operating costs.  The Mirage is spacious and comfortable at altitude and my girls (12 & 14) love the extra seats to bring friends on trips.  We frequently fly into KGNB (8200 ft elev.) and the airplane is actually as easy to fly in as my 231. Operating costs are obviously higher given 21gph vs 11 gph in the 231 but maintenance costs have been reasonable. Annuals run about $500 higher.  I bought a corporate owned a/c that had been well maintained so has a lot to do with my expereince so far.  We flew through a huge line of weather last evening from CRP to DTO and the ride was delightful - my wife did not even wake up as we flew through.  Worth a consideration if you are looking for extra seats and a little more speed.  Definitely worth it if you need to fly through weather on a regular basis......we have not had to scrap a single trip in the last two years due to weather.

I still enjoy flying my 231 when its just me though.  Just got back from Sun-N-Fun

[GeorgePerry]

The other thing to keep in mind is the added insurance costs associated with a presurized aircraft.  Get a quote and stand by for sticker shock.

your better bet might be an A36TC.

[testwest]

Don't forget the (intercooled) Aerostar 601P. It is far more efficient than any boosted airplane, plenty of room, Mooney-style philosophy went into the design, all of the HQ and fuel vent issues were solved before 1980, great factory support and a great owner's association. I had considered a number of different airplanes as a step-up from the M20J, and nothing else even comes close.

[231flyer]

Insurance was a pleasant surprise after the ridiculous rate for the Eclipse.  The insurance rate was way lower than I had expected and quite reasonable for the hull value.  I have been a lifelong Avemco client for my Mooney (>20 yrs) and had to find a different carrier since they don't insure Malibus.  Howard Fry was able to get me great coverage. I was a 2200 hr pilot with less than 200 hrs pressurized time.  I would suggest you first establish a budget and research a/c in the market.  It's still a buyers market and nice deals can be had. Market values have dropped ~15% since I purchased my Malibu in early 2010. Contact your favorite insurance agent and get a quote.  You are better off dealing with facts.

[carqwik]

Don't forget about the Matrix...a Mirage without pressurization.  Goes as fast as a Bravo, climbs a bit better, and has A/C and some with FIKI.  It lacks a yaw damper though so the ride through turbulence is a bit "nauseating" in the back bench seat.  My buddy had a brand new one for a year which he sold to get an early Meridian.  (The Meridian killed his interest in aviation after the maintenance costs....)

Overall, I'd say that the Matrix is a pretty good deal if you don't fly in O2 levels much with pax...very comfy and lots of power and useful load...and you never have to track down pressurization leaks!!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: GeorgePerry

The other thing to keep in mind is the added insurance costs associated with a presurized aircraft.  Get a quote and stand by for sticker shock.

your better bet might be an A36TC.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Not really.  With plenty of retract experience in the Mooney, and say 1000 hours total time, the Insured might be looking at 0.8% to 1.2% on the hull rate (depending on value of the plane).  Liab wouldn't be *too* much more on top of that.

Plenty of competition out there...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Not really.  With plenty of retract experience in the Mooney, and say 1000 hours total time, the Insured might be looking at 0.8% to 1.2% on the hull rate (depending on value of the plane).  Liab wouldn't be *too* much more on top of that.

Plenty of competition out there...

[johnggreen]

I found George's comments about insurance and pressurization to be interesting.  I don't doubt that he has valid reasons for bringing it up, but it is not a factor that I have encountered.

Over the last year, I have seriously considered moving up to pressurization and more room.  I looked at twins and singles.  My insurance agent is a very gregarious fellow, excellent pilot, and loves talking about airplanes in addition to writing insurance.  Due to the depressed market, I/he looked at various aircraft and their pros and cons.  He got me all kinds of quotes on insurance and not once was the issue of pressurization raised.  In fact, I was kind of surprised that I could go to a pressurized twin with almost no increase in rates/thousand of hull value.  I do have a fairly broad range of experience and hours and no claims in almost 50 years of flying which I'm sure helps a lot.  I am waiting with bated breath for "AGE" to become an issue though.

The only real issue I encountered was that insurance companies now look at a piston pilot moving to turbine power with a serious jaundiced eye.  They are going to require some serious training, real hours in the PIC seat with an instructor and elevated premiums for quite a while.

After looking and considering operating and acquisition costs, I decided to just continue to enjoy the Bravo.  BUT !! If I was going to move up, the Mirage would be the likely candidate, with the Meridian next if they will just start drilling for natural gas at my ranch.

Yall have a good day, OK?

Jgreen

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: johnggreen

Over the last year, I have seriously considered moving up to pressurization and more room.  I looked at twins and singles.  My insurance agent is a very gregarious fellow, excellent pilot, and loves talking about airplanes in addition to writing insurance.  Due to the depressed market, I/he looked at various aircraft and their pros and cons.  He got me all kinds of quotes on insurance and not once was the issue of pressurization raised.  In fact, I was kind of surprised that I could go to a pressurized twin with almost no increase in rates/thousand of hull value.  I do have a fairly broad range of experience and hours and no claims in almost 50 years of flying which I'm sure helps a lot.  I am waiting with bated breath for "AGE" to become an issue though.

Yes. Plenty of competition out there, so the companies are chasing all kinds of business.

The only real issue I encountered was that insurance companies now look at a piston pilot moving to turbine power with a serious jaundiced eye.3

Not really...quite a few specialty markets.  They'll just want some mentor time post initial training.

After looking and considering operating and acquisition costs, I decided to just continue to enjoy the Bravo.  BUT !! If I was going to move up, the Mirage would be the likely candidate, with the Meridian next if they will just start drilling for natural gas at my ranch.

nothing beats Mooney efficiency in a 4-place certified piston single.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

[John Pleisse]

Quote: testwest

Don't forget the (intercooled) Aerostar 601P. It is far more efficient than any boosted airplane, plenty of room, Mooney-style philosophy went into the design, all of the HQ and fuel vent issues were solved before 1980, great factory support and a great owner's association. I had considered a number of different airplanes as a step-up from the M20J, and nothing else even comes close.

[butchgilbert]

I looked at many PA-46s and almost pulled the trigger on one, but since I am 6' 4" I couldn't sit in the seat comfortably, and the rudder pedals are not adjustable.  The airplane must have been built by engineers who must have been under 5' 10"!  Remember, in a Piper/Beech the spar traverses the cabin OVER the flooring, in a Mooney is goes under it.  Very limited cockpit space in the Malibu/Mirage if you're tall.  But having pressurization would be the way to go. IMHO.

Butch

[johnggreen]

Jerry,

There is a local pilot who two years ago moved from an Acclaim to a TBM 750.  I would estimate that he had well in excess of 4,000 hours.  In addition to the standard training he had to have an accompanying instructor for the first 30 hours.  That, to me, seemed pretty jaundiced.

Jgreen

[aviatoreb]

Quote: butchgilbert

I looked at many PA-46s and almost pulled the trigger on one, but since I am 6' 4" I couldn't sit in the seat comfortably, and the rudder pedals are not adjustable.  The airplane must have been built by engineers who must have been under 5' 10"!  Remember, in a Piper/Beech the spar traverses the cabin OVER the flooring, in a Mooney is goes under it.  Very limited cockpit space in the Malibu/Mirage if you're tall.  But having pressurization would be the way to go. IMHO.

Butch

[johnggreen]

You tall guys have it rough.  I'm 5'-10" and yes, the world was built for us.  Amost everything fits.  I met a gentleman a couple of years ago who was the largest, perfectly perportioned, huge man I ever saw.  He had to stoop noticeably to get through a 6'-8" door.  He flew a Baron that he bought new.  Beech specially modified the piot's seat for him and he seemed to have no problem.

He could literally stand at the wing step of the Baron and look, unobstructed, over the fuselage.

I do often hear tall Bonanza owners owners on the Beech forum looking for solutions as well.  One guy suggested a Mooney and was promptly thrown off the blog.  just kidding.

With my "perfect" 5"-10" form, I find the Baron/Bonanza extremely comfortable.  Yesterday, I gave a BFR to a gentleman in a Cirrus.  My lord, it was like sitting in my La-Z-Boy.  The Cirrus is one comfortable airplane!

 

Jgreen

[Piloto]

Consider also the Cessna P210. Six place, pressurized and about same speed as the Bravo for about same price. Unlike the Malibu the P210 will fit nicely in a T-hangar. Hangar size should be considered since a hangar for a Malibu at KFXE is over $1200/month vs a T-hangar for $600/month.

 

José

[Seth]

Quote: johnggreen

I do often hear tall Bonanza owners on the Beech forum looking for solutions as well.  One guy suggested a Mooney and was promptly thrown off the blog.  just kidding.

Jgreen

[Seth]

Also, after viewing this thread, I'm curious about the TBM 700 comparison to the PA-46 that Parker suggested as an alternative.  Anyone with actual experience?  Anyone with fake experience

I know Roberto flew and owned (or is still selling - I saw it on controller) a TBM-850, but the TBM 700 is a 280 knot plane for half if not a third the price of a used 850.

What is the price vs. speed vs fuel burn, everything else of the PA-46 vs TBM-700.  I'd do the research, but this morning I'm just lazy and busy and want to see what other people state.  I don't think this is hijacking the thread as we're still compariing the PA-46 which is what is being discussed as a potential step up.

Take care,

-Seth