I have to become a parts warehouse

[Jrags]

1968 M20G 2100 total time

I have owned my 1968 M20G for about a month.  Two things I have learned so far.  Every time I go to the parts catalog to look for a part, the part numbers from 1968 are no longer valid and have been superseded multiple times.  The most effective way for me to find part numbers is to ask Google Bard.  Bard doesn't get it right every time but it has been right about 75% of the time.

The second thing I have learned that after I get the part numbers, finding the actual part is quite the endeavor.  I have decided to begin accumulating parts that I suspect aren't readily available.  Engine parts are pretty easy.  Try finding the vacuum line from the firewall to the manifold pressure gauge.  Or maybe the access panel on the left side of the fuselage and the dzus fitting sizes for that panel. First, the panel doesn't seem to be in my parts catalog.  Maybe my plane is the only one with it.  Forget trying to get part numbers for the dzus fittings.  (Mine are rusting and making my new paint job look bad.)

For my Mooney parts warehouse, I am buying up steam gauges, sending them for overhaul, and keeping them for when my next one craps out.  I've already lost the DG, Tach cable, and the Manifold pressure in just the first month (that's what I get for buying a plane with 0 hours over the last 45 years.)  With all these new electronic (and incredibly expensive) gauges coming out, pretty soon I won't be able to find steam gauges.  I'm already thinking I need to grab a heated pitot tube off eBay.

Finally on to my question.  What should I be looking for after I get my steam gauge inventory?  What are the hardest parts to find than I can begin looking for now in anticipation of needing them at some point down the road?  Unless I get into an accident, I'm not expecting to need sheet metal.  I'm still so new at this, I realize I don't know what I don't know.  What parts seem to take the longest to find?  What's that oddball part no one can find?

I heard this the other day:  "My plane gets newer the longer I own it."

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Jrags said:

1968 M20G 2100 total time

I have owned my 1968 M20G for about a month.  Two things I have learned so far.  Every time I go to the parts catalog to look for a part, the part numbers from 1968 are no longer valid and have been superseded multiple times.  The most effective way for me to find part numbers is to ask Google Bard.  Bard doesn't get it right every time but it has been right about 75% of the time.

The second thing I have learned that after I get the part numbers, finding the actual part is quite the endeavor.  I have decided to begin accumulating parts that I suspect aren't readily available.  Engine parts are pretty easy.  Try finding the vacuum line from the firewall to the manifold pressure gauge.  Or maybe the access panel on the left side of the fuselage and the dzus fitting sizes for that panel. First, the panel doesn't seem to be in my parts catalog.  Maybe my plane is the only one with it.  Forget trying to get part numbers for the dzus fittings.  (Mine are rusting and making my new paint job look bad.)

For my Mooney parts warehouse, I am buying up steam gauges, sending them for overhaul, and keeping them for when my next one craps out.  I've already lost the DG, Tach cable, and the Manifold pressure in just the first month (that's what I get for buying a plane with 0 hours over the last 45 years.)  With all these new electronic (and incredibly expensive) gauges coming out, pretty soon I won't be able to find steam gauges.  I'm already thinking I need to grab a heated pitot tube off eBay.

Finally on to my question.  What should I be looking for after I get my steam gauge inventory?  What are the hardest parts to find than I can begin looking for now in anticipation of needing them at some point down the road?  Unless I get into an accident, I'm not expecting to need sheet metal.  I'm still so new at this, I realize I don't know what I don't know.  What parts seem to take the longest to find?  What's that oddball part no one can find?

I heard this the other day:  "My plane gets newer the longer I own it."

Well what about the rubber intake boot for the engine?  Do you have electric gear?  You’ll need a set of gears (20/1 or 40/1), an airspeed switch and maybe an emergency gear cable.

There are more im sure…yes, it’s worrying, but I’ve had mine (68 F) for 10 years and it’s been ok.  You should try to get an edm900 and ditch the mechanical gages.

[65MooneyPilot]

I agree you should go electronic instruments where it makes since. I was just talking to Dan at LASAR yesterday and the fasteners for the aft avionics and battery panel are available. I need to change mine also. After 59 years the screwdriver slots are almost completely worn out. Dan told me he will be retiring soon and as of yesterday no one is in line to take his place. It will be a true challenge when he is gone. 

[N201MKTurbo]

The fasteners on the tail panel are Southco. Spruce has them. I have about 10 spares in my hangar.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/ha/fast_1southco.html

https://southco.com/en_us_int/fasteners/emdzusemreg-quarter-turn-fasteners

 

[DXB]

I used these to replace the deteriorating ones on the tail panel - worked great!

[DCarlton]

https://store.skybolt.com/categories.aspx?Keyword=mooney

Really nice fastener kits for the Mooney.  

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

I used these to replace the deteriorating ones on the tail panel - worked great!

 

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The fasteners on the tail panel are Southco. Spruce has them. I have about 10 spares in my hangar.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/ha/fast_1southco.html

https://southco.com/en_us_int/fasteners/emdzusemreg-quarter-turn-fasteners

 

Have you guys drilled out and replaced the receiver end too or did just replacing the “male” end work?

[DXB]

20 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

 

Have you guys drilled out and replaced the receiver end too or did just replacing the “male” end work?

male end worked for me...

[N201MKTurbo]

me too.

[A64Pilot]

I dislike DZUS fasteners, in my opinion it’s worth replacing them with SS phillips head Camlocs. Stainless is purdy and doesn’t rust.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/sb-ss-protruding.php?clickkey=3745281

Phillips head because slotted screwdrivers eventually slip and scratch the panel.

Speaking of which a “snoopy tool “ is what you’re supposed to use on Dzus not a screwdriver.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/dzussnoopytool12-04763.php

Snoopy doesn’t have a sharp edge and is less likely to scratch and if you look the slot in a Dzus isn’t flat.

[Yetti]

if you add up the steam guage OH costs, you can get into glass for about the same.

[Jrags]

My steam gauge DG died.  I thought maybe I should upgrade to a new electronic DG.

The Garmin G5 cost for just the instrument is $2625 for just the screen and then there's the magnetometer on top and a GAD.  Oh and the Avionics shop said my old beacon and nav lights might cause interference with the magnetometer so changing all of them out would be about $3500.  Then there is the cost of installation, another $2500.

I just got a quote to install a AV-30-C and a JPM EDM 900.  The quote was $26k.  

I sent off my DG to be serviced Thursday and Fed ex is delivering it back to me tomorrow.  Total cost $465

No thanks.  It will be cheaper by many orders of magnitude to not do the upgrades.   I'll just keep a repaired yellow tagged spare for each steam gauge for tens and tens of thousands less.   I wonder how far I can fly on $26k in gas.

[MikeOH]

28 minutes ago, Jrags said:

My steam gauge DG died.  I thought maybe I should upgrade to a new electronic DG.

The Garmin G5 cost for just the instrument is $2625 for just the screen and then there's the magnetometer on top and a GAD.  Oh and the Avionics shop said my old beacon and nav lights might cause interference with the magnetometer so changing all of them out would be about $3500.  Then there is the cost of installation, another $2500.

I just got a quote to install a AV-30-C and a JPM EDM 900.  The quote was $26k.  

I sent off my DG to be serviced Thursday and Fed ex is delivering it back to me tomorrow.  Total cost $465

No thanks.  It will be cheaper by many orders of magnitude to not do the upgrades.   I'll just keep a repaired yellow tagged spare for each steam gauge for tens and tens of thousands less.   I wonder how far I can fly on $26k in gas.

Good for you!

I feel the same way.   I've had my M20F for over six years and the gyros (AI, DG, and TC) and vacuum pump have been fine; if I have to spend $500 for OH next year I'm good with that!

I just don't see the value in spending tens of thousands of dollars to 'get rid of vacuum gyros'.  I've never quite bought into the elimination of the vacuum system as being an improvement in safety.  I like the fault tolerance of TWO different sources of power.  My understanding is that 'glass' gyros require back-up batteries...one more thing to check and maintain...and how long does the gyro run?  I have a low vacuum warning light and vacuum gauge along with a low voltage warning light and digital voltmeter.  I'm confident I'll pick up a failure in either system...either one of which is going to function as long as the engine is running.  IOW, I believe a two power source system to be TWO fault tolerant.  An all 'electric' panel is only single fault tolerant in my mind...I don't trust the battery enough to consider it a true backup.  Plus if the 'glass' gyro fails the battery is not of much use!  That's why you must have a second one!  Of course if you have a true electrical failure you are back to those 1 hour batteries.

[DCarlton]

18 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Good for you!

I feel the same way.   I've had my M20F for over six years and the gyros (AI, DG, and TC) and vacuum pump have been fine; if I have to spend $500 for OH next year I'm good with that!

I just don't see the value in spending tens of thousands of dollars to 'get rid of vacuum gyros'.  I've never quite bought into the elimination of the vacuum system as being an improvement in safety.  I like the fault tolerance of TWO different sources of power.  My understanding is that 'glass' gyros require back-up batteries...one more thing to check and maintain...and how long does the gyro run?  I have a low vacuum warning light and vacuum gauge along with a low voltage warning light and digital voltmeter.  I'm confident I'll pick up a failure in either system...either one of which is going to function as long as the engine is running.  IOW, I believe a two power source system to be TWO fault tolerant.  An all 'electric' panel is only single fault tolerant in my mind...I don't trust the battery enough to consider it a true backup.  Plus if the 'glass' gyro fails the battery is not of much use!  That's why you must have a second one!  Of course if you have a true electrical failure you are back to those 1 hour batteries.

What’s the shop rate?  200 / hr?  $26k?  

[Pinecone]

Shop around.  Those prices sound high.

Garmin G-5 has a built-in backup battery that will run some 4 - 5 hours.  How long will your vacuum gyro run once the low vacuum light comes on?  Not counting the major failure mode of dry vacuum pumps where there is suddenly no vacuum at all.

And how proficient are you on partial panel flying?

Just some thoughts.

 

[MikeOH]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

What’s the shop rate?  200 / hr?  $26k?  

Beats me; those were JRAGS’ numbers, not mine.

[PT20J]

It is definitely less expensive to keep the old stuff running. There is so much used equipment out there from panel upgrades that it’s not hard to find replacements, and most old stuff can still be repaired. The problem is that you never know which old thing is going to fail next, or where. If you fly mostly locally for $100 hamburgers the reliability may not be as important. But if you travel a lot, reliability can be a big issue. And for me, playing whack-a-mole with the panel became tiresome. 

 

[Jrags]

The shop rate is $135/hr

Quantity Item Rate Amount

1 UAX-90052-01 uAvionix - AV-30C EFIS, Certified $2,149.00

1 UAX-90093-01 AV-Mag PMA Certified Magnetometer for AV-30 $299.00

INSTALL LABOR Remove existing DG. Install AV-30 and magnetometer. Nav interface install $4,320.00

1 EDM-900-4CP-2 Cyl. Primary Kit L/R 2 Fuel Tanks , With FloScan Transducer Primary Kit $5,385.00

4 Quote Cies Fuel Level Sender $625.00 $2,500.00

72 INSTALL LABOR Remove all engine gauges, senders, and wiring. Install EDM system with new Cies fuel level senders. $9,720.00 4

INSTALL LABOR Relocate Com or ELT antenna. They are located within 1-inch of each other. $135.00 $540.00

1 Misc Parts Misc parts quoted are for additional items required for the installation. Parts would include wire, circuit breakers and other shop supplies needed. This is an estimate and could change based upon the needs of the installation. $1,200.00

Note (Past installations have shown an issue with magnetometers having issues with older lighting systems creating interference and kicking the system offline. The fix for this is to replace the wingtip, flashing red, strobe and tail position lights. Cost to replace these would ballpark $3500 installed. We cannot know if this will be an issue until we run the site survey for the magnetometer.)

Total $26,113.00

[DCarlton]

It adds up quick doesn't it.  

[PT20J]

57 minutes ago, Jrags said:

The shop rate is $135/hr

Quantity Item Rate Amount

1 UAX-90052-01 uAvionix - AV-30C EFIS, Certified $2,149.00

1 UAX-90093-01 AV-Mag PMA Certified Magnetometer for AV-30 $299.00

INSTALL LABOR Remove existing DG. Install AV-30 and magnetometer. Nav interface install $4,320.00

1 EDM-900-4CP-2 Cyl. Primary Kit L/R 2 Fuel Tanks , With FloScan Transducer Primary Kit $5,385.00

4 Quote Cies Fuel Level Sender $625.00 $2,500.00

72 INSTALL LABOR Remove all engine gauges, senders, and wiring. Install EDM system with new Cies fuel level senders. $9,720.00 4

INSTALL LABOR Relocate Com or ELT antenna. They are located within 1-inch of each other. $135.00 $540.00

1 Misc Parts Misc parts quoted are for additional items required for the installation. Parts would include wire, circuit breakers and other shop supplies needed. This is an estimate and could change based upon the needs of the installation. $1,200.00

Note (Past installations have shown an issue with magnetometers having issues with older lighting systems creating interference and kicking the system offline. The fix for this is to replace the wingtip, flashing red, strobe and tail position lights. Cost to replace these would ballpark $3500 installed. We cannot know if this will be an issue until we run the site survey for the magnetometer.)

Total $26,113.00

My shop told me that they have had to rewire every Cessna with wingtip strobes when installing a GMU 11. They just replace the wire with shielded wire -- they didn't need to replace any lights.

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

My shop told me that they have had to rewire every Cessna with wingtip strobes when installing a GMU 11. They just replace the wire with shielded wire -- they didn't need to replace any lights.

Since I put my LED nav/strobe tips in I can faintly hear them on the #2 radio now.   I couldn't hear the janky old strobes with nuclear power supplies.   Go figure. 

[PT20J]

19 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Since I put my LED nav/strobe tips in I can faintly hear them on the #2 radio now.   I couldn't hear the janky old strobes with nuclear power supplies.   Go figure. 

I wonder if the old strobes were better shielded because they knew they were noisy? 
 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Since I put my LED nav/strobe tips in I can faintly hear them on the #2 radio now.   I couldn't hear the janky old strobes with nuclear power supplies.   Go figure. 

My LED belly strobe is faintly audible, but the old high voltage one could not be missed! I'm content. Both are Whelen, using the same hole and trim ring.

[Aviationist]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:51 PM, MikeOH said:

Good for you!

I feel the same way.   I've had my M20F for over six years and the gyros (AI, DG, and TC) and vacuum pump have been fine; if I have to spend $500 for OH next year I'm good with that!

I just don't see the value in spending tens of thousands of dollars to 'get rid of vacuum gyros'.  I've never quite bought into the elimination of the vacuum system as being an improvement in safety.  I like the fault tolerance of TWO different sources of power.  My understanding is that 'glass' gyros require back-up batteries...one more thing to check and maintain...and how long does the gyro run?  I have a low vacuum warning light and vacuum gauge along with a low voltage warning light and digital voltmeter.  I'm confident I'll pick up a failure in either system...either one of which is going to function as long as the engine is running.  IOW, I believe a two power source system to be TWO fault tolerant.  An all 'electric' panel is only single fault tolerant in my mind...I don't trust the battery enough to consider it a true backup.  Plus if the 'glass' gyro fails the battery is not of much use!  That's why you must have a second one!  Of course if you have a true electrical failure you are back to those 1 hour batteries.

All this tells me is that you don’t understand modern systems, or how they work. 
 

a gyro has many moving physical parts which wear over time and break. Each one of them. A electronics based mfd has 0 moving parts and is completely electronic. Certified avionics are built with high end quality components. 
 

a alternator almost always runs off a belt. It’s not connected to the engine in any other way other than its physical mount. A vacuum pump is mounted in the accessory case with gears and mechanical bits sharing the same space as your oil pump and mags. A failure of the drive gear can cause A LOT of damage and potentially end up with an overhaul requirement. 
 

failure of a vacuum leaves your instruments working for seconds with no real warning other than noticing the suction gauge has stopped indicating. A failed alternator reverts instruments to ship battery power for the remainder of the charge of the battery, almost all aircraft have an indication of lost charging systems either through amp meter or lighting, and once the ship battery dies, the internal battery of the device takes over for an additional amount of time. That additional amount of time is required to be at least 45 minutes I believe and in the case of the AV30 and the G5, those batteries far out perform that minimum requirement. 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I wonder if the old strobes were better shielded because they knew they were noisy? 
 

That could be.  One of the new LED nav/strobes grounds to the airframe due to a broken ground wire.    I suspect that might be it, but haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.