Why do people freak out about ADS-B and mid-air collisions?

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Ya think?

 

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you said that to me i might have reverted to a former life and ripped the wings off in an 8 g left turn! Seriously, if someone listens to me that well, I don’t think I’d fly with them anymore.

I’ve been flying with him for 30 years. It is like a marriage, you have to take the good with the bad.

[RoundTwo]

15 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Heck, the #1 distraction I usually see for young pilots is the radio!  But I think I’ll keep using it and trying to teach them to  !

And now, you’ve got to add in all the cameras they need to manage for their content. 

[Ragsf15e]

48 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

And now, you’ve got to add in all the cameras they need to manage for their content. 

That’s downright scary.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I fly a 200kt plus airplane in SoCal. It’s very busy here and you would be stupid to not be watching the ADSB traffic at all times. 
 

When you’re looking out the window for the one guy they told you about, you’re probably not going to see the 2 others near you that they didn’t call about. 
 

it’s a lot easier and benefit to see something in a screen miles off than something outside a half mile away. If you even see it. 

Let me know how well ADSB helps you avoid that Piper Cub that's a half mile away, and painted bright yellow to show up better on your display . . . . You also won't see my Mooney on your display when you fly outside of Bravo airspace where I am [w-a-a-a-y-y outside] . . . .

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve been flying with him for 30 years. It is like a marriage, you have to take the good with the bad.

Sorry, totally not listening to something like you describe, it would have been the last time I flew with that person without my having a set of controls.

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Let me know how well ADSB helps you avoid that Piper Cub that's a half mile away, and painted bright yellow to show up better on your display . . . . You also won't see my Mooney on your display when you fly outside of Bravo airspace where I am [w-a-a-a-y-y outside] . . . .

None of that is allowed to fly anywhere near SoCal. 
 

for good reason. 
 

Luckily people like you aren’t legally allowed to take off or land anywhere close to where I am. 

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Let me know how well ADSB helps you avoid that Piper Cub that's a half mile away, and painted bright yellow to show up better on your display . . . . You also won't see my Mooney on your display when you fly outside of Bravo airspace where I am [w-a-a-a-y-y outside] . . . .

I also may not see your mooney coming straight at me from a mile two away

[N201MKTurbo]

54 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Sorry, totally not listening to something like you describe, it would have been the last time I flew with that person without my having a set of controls.

I can agree with that. It was one of maybe three out of hundreds of flights where I wasn’t at the controls. 
 

It gives you a terrible feeling of helplessness being in a situation like that. I was undoing my seat belt and about to jump up there when the plane went by. I was in the way back seats in the Six, so I couldn’t just reach over.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

None of that is allowed to fly anywhere near SoCal. 
 

for good reason. 
 

Luckily people like you aren’t legally allowed to take off or land anywhere close to where I am. 

Sure we are. I fly into Bravo airspace usually once every 12-14 months. Charlie airspace isn't an issue as long as I talk to them on the radio in advance. Cubs, Champs and other models with no electrical system are everywhere . . . .

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

None of that is allowed to fly anywhere near SoCal. 
 

for good reason. 
 

Luckily people like you aren’t legally allowed to take off or land anywhere close to where I am. 

Profoundly disagree. Read FAR 91.225. Many j-3's and PA 18s left the factory with no electrical system. 

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Profoundly disagree. Read FAR 91.225. Many j-3's and PA 18s left the factory with no electrical system. 

Not in or above C/B they aren’t. 
 

which pretty much means you aren’t getting into the LA area, and you certainly aren’t flying your nordo cub very many places at all. 
 

Not installing ADSB to an aircraft capable of having it installed (inexpensively I might add) is an increase to risk for you and those around you. Without question. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by chriscalandro

[GeeBee]

Sure but not all of LA is B or C. In fact, I can fly the VFR corridor NORDO with no transponder. I can for instance depart Chino (twr closed) and land at Compton with no radio and no transponder. 

[MikeOH]

20 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Not installing ADSB to an aircraft capable of having it installed (inexpensively I might add) is an increase to risk for you and those around you. Without question. 

Ok Chicken Little, I’d like to see some data to support your holier than thou ‘without question’ position on this.

The OP actually provided data to support his position:

”The risk of midair collisions is very small.   Since 2013 we've averaged about 200 fatalities per year in non-commercial fixed wing and collisions are a very small part of them.

In 2020, there were. 5 with 4 having fatalities.

In 2019 there were 8, with 7 having fatalities.

In 2018 there were 12, with 7 having fatalities.

In 2017 there were 7, with 5 having fatalities.”

So, you stay heads down “watching ADSB traffic ALL the time” counting on it for strategic avoidance since the variable multi-second delays in latency pretty much render it unreliable for anything tactical.

Meanwhile I’ll keep my head on a swivel looking outside. Or, since I’m not doing it “your way” you best reduce your mid-air risk to zero by staying on the ground given I fly in SoCal!

[McMooney]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

 

Ok Chicken Little, I’d like to see some data to support your holier than thou ‘without question’ position on this.

The OP actually provided data to support his position:

”The risk of midair collisions is very small.   Since 2013 we've averaged about 200 fatalities per year in non-commercial fixed wing and collisions are a very small part of them.

In 2020, there were. 5 with 4 having fatalities.

In 2019 there were 8, with 7 having fatalities.

In 2018 there were 12, with 7 having fatalities.

In 2017 there were 7, with 5 having fatalities.”

So, you stay heads down “watching ADSB traffic ALL the time” counting on it for strategic avoidance since the variable multi-second delays in latency pretty much render it unreliable for anything tactical.

Meanwhile I’ll keep my head on a swivel looking outside. Or, since I’m not doing it “your way” you best reduce your mid-air risk to zero by staying on the ground given I fly in SoCal!

I don't understand why everything has to be either or, why isn't it both?  Airplanes are extremely difficult to see, when adsb shows you 10 airplanes within 5 miles and you only see 1 if that, i'd think you'd appreciate having extra help.  

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I don't understand why everything has to be either or, why isn't it both?  Airplanes are extremely difficult to see, when adsb shows you 10 airplanes within 5 miles and you only see 1 if that, i'd think you'd appreciate having extra help.  

Actually, I do as I stated earlier.

I was really addressing chriscalandro’s arrogant comment that pilots are stupid if they “aren’t watching ADSB traffic all the time”

[chriscalandro]

It is NOT that hard to pay attention to ADSB display and look out the window. Anybody under 80 has been doing it the last 15 years. 
 

if you can’t manage to get your brain to understand that more information is better than no information, that’s a problem with logic and judgement. 
 

if you are not using ADSB out, you are not telling everyone else where you are. If you aren’t using ADSB in, you don’t know where everyone is who is actively telling you where everyone is. and that’s stupid, especially in a high traffic area

 

no where did I say you should stare only at the screen.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by chriscalandro

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

It is NOT that hard to pay attention to ADSB display and look out the window. Anybody under 80 has been doing it the last 15 years. 
 

if you can’t manage to get your brain to understand that more information is better than no information, that’s a problem with logic and judgement. 
 

if you are not using ADSB out, you are not telling everyone else where you are. If you aren’t using ADSB in, you don’t know where everyone is who is actively telling you where everyone is. and that’s stupid, especially in a high traffic area

I'm decades from being 80, have no ADSB in my Mooney, use logic and judgement daily (I've logiced my way to half a million dollars in cycle improvements at work this year, through the end of October). Have you ever heard of "information overload"? Google is your friend, you may learn something. 

Your posts in this thread, sir, are arrogant, egotistical, abrasive, close-minded and indicative of a large superiority complex. You don’t seem capable of realizing that there is more than one way to do anything, or that if there are, you apparently think that your own ways are clearly superior and anyone who disagrees or acts differently is stupid.

Read the FARs, I don't go into Bravo space often enough to remember the section number, but the rules are clearly laid out for flying non-ADSB aircraft there. (I look it up every trip on the FAA website.) Only permission over the radio is required before entering Charlie and Delta spaces.

Keep your eyes out the freaking windows. If you run over me, I will haunt you to your grave; if you run over a plane without an electrical system, many people will be unhappy with you and some will doubtlessly take action (rednecks are everywhere in the country, including the lower portions of the Republik of Kalifornia).

Fly safe out there! And remember, not everyone agrees with your opinions or methods, and some just aren't paying attention!

[chriscalandro]

If you think a screen showing the traffic in your general vicinity is information overload, you have just proven my point. 
 

If you think you shouldn’t install ADSB because it’s information overload for everyone else and you want everyone else to look out the window, THATS arrogant egotistical and moronic. ADSB out isn’t for you. It’s for everyone else. 
 

the current generation of pilots is doing just fine with their screens and their windows. You can either join the program or stick to your Stone Age logic. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by chriscalandro

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

 

Read the FARs, I don't go into Bravo space often enough to remember the section number, but the rules are clearly laid out for flying non-ADSB aircraft there. (I look it up every trip on the FAA website.) Only permission over the radio is required before entering Charlie and Delta spaces.

 

You are correct in that it’s very clearly laid out.  And it doesn’t say what you think it says.  In fact it says the exact opposite.  If you are in fact entering airspace where ADSB is required in the manner you state above, you are doing so against the FAR and is a violation.  
 

Also, ADAPT is NOT a way to circumvent the regulation and using it for such (as you described) is also against the FAR.

Please note: The FAA will not issue in-flight authorizations to operators of non-equipped aircraft, nor will air traffic control (ATC) facilities accept requests for these types of authorizations by telephone. An ATCclearance to operate in airspace where ADS-B is required is NOT an authorization to operate without compliant ADS-B.

 

 

Can I get a one-time deviation from the requirement?

Pilots/operators using aircraft that do not meet ADS-BOut equipage or performance requirements may request an authorization to deviate from the rule to access ADS-B Out rule airspace.

The FAA has developed the ADS-B Deviation Authorization Preflight Tool (ADAPT) to manage these authorization requests. ADAPT is the only FAArecognized method for making these requests. ADAPTis intended for non-routine and non-scheduled, single flights.

In order to be considered for an ADS-B deviation authorization with ADAPT, requests must meet the following criteria:

• Aircraft must be equipped with an operational transponder and operational altitude encoder (i.e. Mode C)
• Request submitted no more than 24 hours before flight
• Request submitted no less than 1 hour before flight

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by chriscalandro

[Hank]

Indeed, ADAPT is how I make my once-a-year or less flight into (or usually underneath, but inside the outer ring) Bravo space. Such as when I flew into, then several days later, out of Tampa for the Mooney Summit last year. This is exactly why the program exists. My Mode C works very well, thank you, and I apply as close to the 24 hour advance limit as possible, haven't been denied yet.

You're right, I was incorrect about Class C, it requires ADAPT, too, but again, places I don't go. I'm a country boy, I fly to country airports, don't even visit towered fields very often, but I do talk to them if I go past close enough--in fact, with flight following or IFR flight plan, I'm often transferred to them. So ATC knows I'm around; if you're IFR they are tasked with separating us, but if you are flying VMC, it's still your job to not fly into anything--hills, rocks, trees, towers, power lines or other aircraft, regardless of what ATC may or may.not instruct or caution you. And I have the responsibility to do likewise.

Thank you for toning down your remarks. Civil discussion bears fruit; chest thumping and swapping insults only creates ill will between those involved and their willing and unwilling witnesses.

EDIT:  obviously i missed a post of yours, and your subsequent posts continue to show the same exceeding arrogance as the preceding ones. You'll just need to learn that you are not always correct, everyone will not always agree with you, and on this side of the continent, talking to someone the way you write will lead to dental bills and bruises. Bless your little, shrunken heart!

[ZuluZulu]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Sure but not all of LA is B or C. In fact, I can fly the VFR corridor NORDO with no transponder. I can for instance depart Chino (twr closed) and land at Compton with no radio and no transponder. 

How do you do that without a transponder when the LASFR procedure requires the aircraft be equipped as specified in Section 91.215 and be replying on code 1201?

[GeeBee]

30 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

How do you do that without a transponder when the LASFR procedure requires the aircraft be equipped as specified in Section 91.215 and be replying on code 1201?

Read paragraph, b(3) of 91.215 as well as FAR 91.225 paragraph (e). The LASFR requires you to reply on 1201 IF installed, but if you have no electrical system you do not because you cannot and a transponder cannot be required because it is not class B or C airspace but a VFR corridor through class B. Part 93 says the aircraft in the LASFR "must be equipped" per 91.215 and 91.215 specifically says, if you have no electrical system a transponder is not required except in B airspace and you're not in B airspace in the corridor.

We had this discussion on SuperCub.org and an attempt to violate a PA-18 with no electrics that flew through the corridor NORDO. It did not hold up.

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

no where did I say you should stare only at the screen.

 

To QUOTE your EXACT words, "...you would be stupid to not be watching the ADSB traffic at ALL times."

How are you suppose to do that without staring at the screen?

[chriscalandro]

12 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

To QUOTE your EXACT words, "...you would be stupid to not be watching the ADSB traffic at ALL times."

How are you suppose to do that without staring at the screen?

By not being a moron. It’s possible to keep track of multiple things at one time. 
 

You’re smooth brain might not be capable of comprehending this, but you can watch, without staring. Just like I watch my speed and engine instrumentation during all phases of flight. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by chriscalandro

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

By not being a moron. It’s possible to keep track of multiple things at one time. 
 

You’re smooth brain might not be capable of comprehending this, but you can watch, without staring. Just like I watch my speed and engine instrumentation during all phases of flight. 

Your (it's not you're, BTW) brain needs to have a better grasp of the English language. You wrote, "at ALL times" if that is not what you meant, then perhaps you should endeavor to write what you do mean in the future.  May your massively swollen head grasp that concept.